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Police car on blue lights running red light hit my car significant damage, Accident
Mri10
post Fri, 20 Jul 2018 - 14:53
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In May 2018 a police car attending a knife crime call collided with my little i10 in what could have easily been a fatal accident if the timing was a second different. My daughter and I suffered severe whiplash, one police occupant a broken arm. Both vehicles written off. The police car entered a complex multilane traffic conrolled junction at high speed around midnight, blue lights, no siren presumably expecting no opposing traffic, I performed an emergency stop when he was visible to me, causing me to T-bone him as he crossed my path as I proceeded with caution through the green light.
The car behind me backed up my version to a point on the green light, however he saw the blue lights , different angle, no passenger and was 'surprised' I proceeded through the green light.
My insurer liability team are quoting case law in which a 60/40 liability with me coming off with the 60% blame.
I don't know if this is in the remit of advice that can be given here, but I'm really upset by this given how close my daughter was to being killed if things were a fraction of a second different.
It's now going to the legal team who are related to my insurer. I'm told I have no say in what happens with regards decisions as they will be discussed between insurers
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post Fri, 20 Jul 2018 - 14:53
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facade
post Fri, 20 Jul 2018 - 16:05
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Sorry if you don't want to read this, but how could you have "proceeded with caution through the green light" if you hit a Police car with flashing blue lights on at night?

The flashing blue lights are visible well before the car as the scenery flashes blue some distance in front of it, and the car behind you states it was aware of the blue lights before you entered the junction. I think you will struggle to get 0% liability on your part, you might get 50:50 I suppose.

This post has been edited by facade: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 - 16:06
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cp8759
post Fri, 20 Jul 2018 - 16:09
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We weren't there so cannot really comment on liability in the absence of objective evidence like CCTV. However a police vehicle is meant to treat a red light as a give way line, rather than to go flying through it.

The police don't have insurance, so it will be a discussion between your insurance company and the relevant police force.

If your version of events were 100% accurate, I would expect most if not all of the blame to rest on the police driver, as blue lights do not give him or her right of way.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 - 16:09


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notmeatloaf
post Fri, 20 Jul 2018 - 16:11
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It is difficult to say without considerably more info, especially the statement from the officers.

But - at midnight it would be unusual not to see blue lights at a large junction even with a passenger, they do not block a substantial part of your window.

Also it was extremely unfortunate timing with you T-boning him.

The essential issue is that this isn't an ordinary driver, where liability is more clear cut if they go through a red light. In this instance the police are legally permitted to go through the red light, albeit not with reckless abandon. So the insurer will then look at whether you could have taken any reasonable steps to prevent the accident. Unfortunately the problem you have is that the following driver says that you could have done.

With that I think there will always be some degree of split liability - effectively you both should have given way to each other. With that i wonder if it is worth, for you, conceding rather than even more time and stress fighting. It does sound like liability should be in your favour but the police self insure and like many public sector bodies may be prepared to throw a lot of money into fighting over a few percent.
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typefish
post Fri, 20 Jul 2018 - 16:19
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Are you willing to share a GSV of the junction in question, along with a short description of where people were?

This post has been edited by typefish: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 - 16:19
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Mri10
post Fri, 20 Jul 2018 - 16:23
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QUOTE (facade @ Fri, 20 Jul 2018 - 16:05) *
Sorry if you don't want to read this, but how could you have "proceeded with caution through the green light" if you hit a Police car with flashing blue lights on at night?

The flashing blue lights are visible well before the car as the scenery flashes blue some distance in front of it, and the car behind you states it was aware of the blue lights before you entered the junction. I think you will struggle to get 0% liability on your part, you might get 50:50 I suppose.

I'm happy to read any opinion that's why I've posted here. However it was a complex junction with many multi lane directions of opposing traffic lanes.
I'm an observant driver and due to it being mainly road, lights, and refuges it was very well lit and no bounce of light to read. He really blasted through, and I did see him around 15m prior to him crossing my path.
Both cars span at least 270 degrees such was the force of impact and his speed.
It was a panda car not an advanced pursuit driver car.
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southpaw82
post Fri, 20 Jul 2018 - 17:25
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QUOTE (Mri10 @ Fri, 20 Jul 2018 - 17:23) *
It was a panda car not an advanced pursuit driver car.

Funnily enough “advanced pursuit car drivers” do go back to regular duties, so unless you know different you’re only assuming their level of training.

This is a matter for your insurer, I’m not sure what you’re hoping to achieve?


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cp8759
post Fri, 20 Jul 2018 - 23:59
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Fri, 20 Jul 2018 - 17:11) *
In this instance the police are legally permitted to go through the red light

The police are not criminally liable for the criminal offence of contravening a red light, but they are required to treat them as give way lines. So, the question in terms of civil liability then becomes, was the police driver negligent? If we take what the OP says at face value, then yes he was. If I go through a give way line and hit someone, I'm at fault, the same logic applies here IMO.

QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 20 Jul 2018 - 18:25) *
QUOTE (Mri10 @ Fri, 20 Jul 2018 - 17:23) *
It was a panda car not an advanced pursuit driver car.

Funnily enough “advanced pursuit car drivers” do go back to regular duties, so unless you know different you’re only assuming their level of training.

This is a matter for your insurer, I’m not sure what you’re hoping to achieve?

The assignment of fault will presumably make a significant difference to future insurance premiums.


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notmeatloaf
post Sat, 21 Jul 2018 - 11:22
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 21 Jul 2018 - 00:59) *
The police are not criminally liable for the criminal offence of contravening a red light, but they are required to treat them as give way lines. So, the question in terms of civil liability then becomes, was the police driver negligent? If we take what the OP says at face value, then yes he was. If I go through a give way line and hit someone, I'm at fault, the same logic applies here IMO.

Indeed but is the polices obligation to treat the traffic light stop line as a give way, or every centimetre of the junction?

Nor does a green light give you automatic priority over all vehicles in the junction. It means you can pass the stop line.

Police vehicles have flashing lights for exactly the same reason cyclists to - they draw the eye and make you less likely to miss a vehicle in the edges of the saccades as you scan a junction. In my experience with modern lights it is very difficult to miss a police car at night, even in a streetlit area - although as has been said it is impossible to be conclusive without knowing the speed limits, junction design, whether the OP was continuing through a green light or if they had just set off as the light changed.

I think the nail in the coffin in terms of no liability is the following driver saying they saw the police car, and the OP should have seen the police car. Presumably the police officers are saying the same thing. If the OP's explanation is that their passenger meant they weren't afforded that view then IMO that is a tacit admission they didn't make sufficient observations approaching the junction because it basically makes no sense.

And for the OP, I can understand that you must be livid especially if your daughter was hurt. I hope you are recovering well. But civil negligence isn't just that you didn't do anything wrong, it's whether you could have taken reasonable steps to avoid the accident as well - and failing tomake sufficient observations approaching the junction and notice the police car is presumably the "reasonable step" they are assuming you did not make.
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southpaw82
post Sat, 21 Jul 2018 - 12:52
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 21 Jul 2018 - 00:59) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 20 Jul 2018 - 18:25) *
QUOTE (Mri10 @ Fri, 20 Jul 2018 - 17:23) *
It was a panda car not an advanced pursuit driver car.

Funnily enough “advanced pursuit car drivers” do go back to regular duties, so unless you know different you’re only assuming their level of training.

This is a matter for your insurer, I’m not sure what you’re hoping to achieve?

The assignment of fault will presumably make a significant difference to future insurance premiums.

Quite so but what does the OP want us to do about that?

QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Sat, 21 Jul 2018 - 12:22) *
Indeed but is the polices obligation to treat the traffic light stop line as a give way, or every centimetre of the junction?

The obligation is the same as every other motorist - do drive with due care and reasonable consideration. That doesn’t mean blatting through red lights at high speed (normally). Presumably you covered this on your “blue lights course”.


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notmeatloaf
post Sat, 21 Jul 2018 - 13:06
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 21 Jul 2018 - 13:52) *
The obligation is the same as every other motorist - do drive with due care and reasonable consideration. That doesn’t mean blatting through red lights at high speed (normally). Presumably you covered this on your “blue lights course”.

We get training on exactly what you say, proceed with caution, be aware that there is no guarantee you have been seen and some drivers will see a green light as proof that the road ahead is clear, and that an amber light as a cue to floor it. However I'm sure the police training is different to some degree, the caution you need with a five ton ambulance is different to a panda car.

I'm not sure on the situation on civil liability though, as in once a police officer has crossed the stop line whether the whole junction remains "give way" with other traffic having priority or "proceed with caution" with equal priority, as on a green light. I am quite sure our instructors are less legally astute than police ones.

This post has been edited by notmeatloaf: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 - 13:07
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 21 Jul 2018 - 13:22
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Ffom the OP's description this was quite a wide junction. The OP made an emergency stop but still T boned the police car, but was proceeding with caution. I can't read those statements and not think the OP might need to duck under the flying book


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Spandex
post Sat, 21 Jul 2018 - 13:42
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Sat, 21 Jul 2018 - 12:22) *
Indeed but is the polices obligation to treat the traffic light stop line as a give way, or every centimetre of the junction?

Given the discussion in your recent accident thread, you should know that the give way covers the entirety of the manoeuvre (in this case, passing across lanes containing other traffic that has priority). It doesn’t cover just the stop line and it doesn’t cover every centimetre of the junction.
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southpaw82
post Sat, 21 Jul 2018 - 14:34
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Sat, 21 Jul 2018 - 14:06) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 21 Jul 2018 - 13:52) *
The obligation is the same as every other motorist - do drive with due care and reasonable consideration. That doesn’t mean blatting through red lights at high speed (normally). Presumably you covered this on your “blue lights course”.

We get training on exactly what you say, proceed with caution, be aware that there is no guarantee you have been seen and some drivers will see a green light as proof that the road ahead is clear, and that an amber light as a cue to floor it. However I'm sure the police training is different to some degree, the caution you need with a five ton ambulance is different to a panda car.

I'm not sure on the situation on civil liability though, as in once a police officer has crossed the stop line whether the whole junction remains "give way" with other traffic having priority or "proceed with caution" with equal priority, as on a green light. I am quite sure our instructors are less legally astute than police ones.

Liability is an issue of negligence so whether the give way presumption lasts across the whole junction or not is of marginal importance. The police driver was engaging in a risky manoeuvre and as such needed to exercise a great deal of caution. If he did not then arguably he was negligent. Similarly, not seeing a police car lit up like a Christmas tree could also be considered negligent.


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bama
post Sat, 21 Jul 2018 - 14:42
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exactly what case law are they quoting ? ?


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notmeatloaf
post Sat, 21 Jul 2018 - 15:17
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QUOTE (Spandex @ Sat, 21 Jul 2018 - 14:42) *
Given the discussion in your recent accident thread, you should know that the give way covers the entirety of the manoeuvre (in this case, passing across lanes containing other traffic that has priority). It doesn’t cover just the stop line and it doesn’t cover every centimetre of the junction.

Ridiculous. Obviously there the obligation to give way to oncoming traffic at the give way line. It is at that point you have to check you can pass through before any oncoming traffic that is visible, or that you should be in a position to see, reaches the chicane.

You can't possibly be expected to give way if a parked car sets off or someone turns out of a driveway once you have passed the give way line.

It is much clearer on single track bridges where one side has priority. You need to make sure there is no oncoming traffic when you pass the give way line, but you do not need to reverse if an oncoming vehicle comes into view as you as passing over the bridge.

With my accident I was "oncoming traffic" at the point the driver passed the give way line.

This post has been edited by notmeatloaf: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 - 15:18
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DastardlyDick
post Sat, 21 Jul 2018 - 19:46
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sat, 21 Jul 2018 - 14:22) *
Ffom the OP's description this was quite a wide junction. The OP made an emergency stop but still T boned the police car, but was proceeding with caution. I can't read those statements and not think the OP might need to duck under the flying book


Yes, I was wondering about that - to T bone a car with sufficient force to break an arm of one of the occupants, despite all the passive safety features built in to modern vehicles doesn't sit well with proceeding with caution.

This post has been edited by DastardlyDick: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 - 19:48
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baggins1234
post Sat, 21 Jul 2018 - 19:58
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Can we have details of the junction?
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Mri10
post Sat, 21 Jul 2018 - 21:20
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QUOTE (baggins1234 @ Sat, 21 Jul 2018 - 20:58) *
Can we have details of the junction?

King's Mill Hospital
Mansfield Rd, Sutton-in-Ashfield NG17 4JL
01623 622515

https://goo.gl/maps/cJ63ajmX4h52

A38
A38, Sutton-in-Ashfield

https://goo.gl/maps/rtezCepP3KB2

https://photos.app.goo.gl/N3kYmkGxAUsc3ZAp8
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notmeatloaf
post Sat, 21 Jul 2018 - 23:46
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Car looks nasty.

But, I am struggling to see what is complex about the junction. Looks a fairly standard crossroads to me, 40mph, pretty good visibility. Stopping distance from 40mph 36m, distance from stop line to centre of junction 35.5m according to Google.

Did you not see them/brake at all? It looks like at least 40mph for that sort of damage.
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