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76 in a 50 zone - own up or ignore?
pointless
post Thu, 30 Aug 2007 - 16:30
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I have received a NIP for 76mph in a 50 zone which I find hard to believe. I saw the officer in his roadside van having just begun to accelerate from under 30 having driven from a built up area to a dual carriageway. However, I accept I could have hit 65mph as I was overtaking. Having checked out guidelines and posted examples I could get a fine of between £185 and £350 and a certain 6 points. The NIP says if I fail to respond I could get 3 points and a max fine of £1,000. Is failure to respond a better option or do they still pursue a speeding offence as well? Any advice would be appreciated.
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post Thu, 30 Aug 2007 - 16:30
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djtaylor
post Thu, 30 Aug 2007 - 18:34
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http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?autoco...rticle&id=3
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pointless
post Thu, 30 Aug 2007 - 23:06
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Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. I have completed the wizard as suggested. Kind regards

NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? - Lancashire
Date of the offence: - August 2007
Date of the NIP: - 8 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 15 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A59(T) Liverpool Rd 50mph nr Lindle Ln (SW), Hutton (C Div) Mobile
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I had followed a car through a built up area at 25mph. I waited until we left town and the road turned to a 50mph dual carriageway. At the 50mph sign I pulled out and overtook the slow moving vehicle. As I pulled in and slowed down I noticed a mobile camera van in the layby with a camera pointing at me. I drove past at 50mph. I didn't think I had hit a speed higher than 65mph and I had only accelerated for a few seconds prior to braking.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v2.2.3: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 00:01:17 +0100
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jeffreyarcher
post Fri, 31 Aug 2007 - 00:52
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QUOTE (pointless @ Thu, 30 Aug 2007 - 17:30) *
or do they still pursue a speeding offence as well?

Depends on the constabulary, I don't think that Lancashire do.
In any case, even if they do, the speeding should be easily defeated.
Check your insurance before you decide; some companies charge considerably more for S172 (MS90) points than for speeding (SP30).

Check the dates, though. The NIP Wizard seems to be wrong. On the one hand, it says that you got the NIP on day 15, OTOH it syas that you got it within 14 days. confused2.gif
The day of the offence is day 0.

In any case, do you know why it appeared to take 7 days to reach you?
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pointless
post Fri, 31 Aug 2007 - 12:05
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Many thanks for your comment Jeffreyarcher.

Unfortunately, I threw away the envelope, but I do know it was not recorded mail. I opened the letter on a Monday with the rest of my post so it may have arrived on the Saturday. I have no other explanation other than a lot of my mail goes next door because we share the same house number but they have a suffix.

The date of the letter was 8 days after the alleged offence.

I don't think it will be a good idea to ignore the NIP as it says on the back they will drag you before a maggotsrate. Am i correct in thinking that the best course of action is to complete the PACE?

You seem to suggest the speeding will be dealt with easily. How come you are so confident?



Kind regards
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jeffreyarcher
post Fri, 31 Aug 2007 - 12:13
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QUOTE (pointless @ Fri, 31 Aug 2007 - 13:05) *
so it may have arrived on the Saturday.

To utilise late service, you would have to be certain that it arrived on day 15.

QUOTE (pointless @ Fri, 31 Aug 2007 - 13:05) *
You seem to suggest the speeding will be dealt with easily. How come you are so confident?

Clark v DPP.
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pointless
post Fri, 31 Aug 2007 - 16:59
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I've just read wvm2's thread and I was very interested to find that he didn't get a COFP for the 6 points or more expected and came away with only 3 points and £60 fine. Do all constabularies make this offer when they get a PACE ws or was he lucky?
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jeffreyarcher
post Sat, 1 Sep 2007 - 15:09
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That sort of decision would be very much down to the particular constabulary.
Noit related to this particular question, but to a previous one.
You don't say what date you received the notice, but assuming that it was on ao after the 27th of August, the tariff for S172 has just gone up to six points.

This post has been edited by jeffreyarcher: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 - 15:13
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pointless
post Sat, 1 Sep 2007 - 16:27
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Thanks for that titbit, JA. This is getting complicated with goalposts moving faster than a gatso's flash! My NIP was dated and received before 27th Aug so am I right in thinking its only 3 points for not responding in the manner they require or can they slap 6 points in effect backdating the law?. Is an S172 for not filling in the NIP? These offence codes are all new to me.

I am not happy that I'm supposed to have done 76mph and I wonder if it is just coincidence that this is the common cut off point from 3 to 6 points. I know the police can lie about the speed you are doing as I once got stopped on a motorway with my cruise control on 75mph and was shown a Vascar reading of 89mph. I was given the option of a breathalyser or a ticket. No brainer that one! I was so incensed at this lie I still have the caution ticket 8 yrs later. So I intend to send a PACE ws and ask for photo evidence. What's the worse they can do to me?
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Bing o
post Mon, 3 Sep 2007 - 15:06
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That's exactly the speed I got done at - you'll get an SP30 and 6 points and a £250 fine (not a weeks wages, it's not even a days wages)

If you were overtaking, it may be possible that the other car has affected the reading - may be worth pleading guilty to a lower speed?

Not declaring who was driving will have a bigger impact than an SP30 (Mine did nothing to my insurance, and my car is group 17)
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pointless
post Tue, 4 Sep 2007 - 20:02
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Thanks Bing O, that's just the kind of info I needed. Its a lot more than a day's wages for me at £250 though! I'll do the PACE ws and hope I get a 3 point COFP and £60 fine. I might have mitigating circumstances as the car I pulled out to overtake did the usual b****rd trick of speeding up as I went past. Don't think he'll have got pulled though.
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Bing o
post Tue, 4 Sep 2007 - 22:37
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QUOTE (pointless @ Tue, 4 Sep 2007 - 21:02) *
Thanks Bing O, that's just the kind of info I needed. Its a lot more than a day's wages for me at £250 though! I'll do the PACE ws and hope I get a 3 point COFP and £60 fine. I might have mitigating circumstances as the car I pulled out to overtake did the usual b****rd trick of speeding up as I went past. Don't think he'll have got pulled though.


Speeding is an absolute offence - my excuse at the same speed was that I was showing my mate what my car could do, given the obligatory clear road/dry conditions that accompany 9/10 speeding offences.

I'd be interested to see if PACE lowers your punishment - 76-79 is a 6 point penalty with a means tested fine that isn't so far off £250 in a mag court - you can't take a fixed penalty at that speed.

If you want any court fashion tips, get in touch!!

I made the mistake of wearing a £600 suit, and got stung, most of the kackers who racked up in trackies got £50 fines for TWOCing, no insurance etc...
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The Rookie
post Wed, 5 Sep 2007 - 15:35
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No point using PACE if you intend to plead guilty! If anything, using (as a defence) the PACE ws, will increase the fine over pleading guilty.

Simon


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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pointless
post Wed, 12 Sep 2007 - 16:10
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I didn't get to read Simon's advice before I sent off the PACE which I did because other people on the forum got a COFP back with 3 points and £60 fine, whereas people that didn't PACE got 6 points and £300 fine for similar alleged heinous crime.

I have now received a reply dated 11/9/07 which acknowledges my communication and saysI have not provided admission on the statutory form but in a form attempting to satisfy CJA 1967 and sect 9 of MCA 1980. It says it amounts to an admission satisfying sect 12 of RT Offenders Act 1988 and will be used in evidence, if required.

Regarding Funke v France it says I am subject to English legislation. It says PACE Act 1984 does not apply to such requests. The questions on the NIP were to elicit evidence for the prosecution.

They go on to say I have been misled regards Mawdsley v CC of Cheshire 2004 as the judge said a signed form/statement amounted to confession under sect 82 PACE Act 1984 which fell outside need for caution.Admissibilty has been confirmed by Jones v DPP 2004.

They then say if I want to avoid court ( which I do!) I should complete and return the COFP.

Unfortunately, there wasn't a COFP attached so I don't know what to do. Any advice?

Many thanks for everyone's help so far. Regards, Mark
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pointless
post Thu, 13 Sep 2007 - 16:23
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I've now managed to scan my reply from Lancs Constabulary into a word document but I can't work out how to include it in my posting. It does seem to be a different letter to what other people have as it does appear to imply that I have complied with the sect 172 requirements and now they just want to make me accept a COFP. Is anyone interested? If so please let me know how to post a copy of the letter.

In the meantime, although the letter invites me to complete and return the COFP none was enclosed with the letter. Any ideas on what I should do next? Regards, Mark
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Glacier2
post Thu, 13 Sep 2007 - 19:35
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QUOTE (pointless @ Thu, 13 Sep 2007 - 16:23) *
I've now managed to scan my reply from Lancs Constabulary into a word document but I can't work out how to include it in my posting. It does seem to be a different letter to what other people have as it does appear to imply that I have complied with the sect 172 requirements and now they just want to make me accept a COFP. Is anyone interested? If so please let me know how to post a copy of the letter.

In the meantime, although the letter invites me to complete and return the COFP none was enclosed with the letter. Any ideas on what I should do next? Regards, Mark


If it is a £60 and 3 points offer, I would bite the hands off them.
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pointless
post Thu, 13 Sep 2007 - 19:56
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Hi Glacier

I would dearly like to snap their hands off and while I was at it take 3 points and a £60 fine. However, I have no idea what they have offered me as the COFP referred to was not attached. Does anyone have any experience of this? Does it arrive in a seperate letter? Should I contact them or just wait in the hope that they have forgotten to generate a COFP and this will all die a death? Regards, Mark

This post has been edited by pointless: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 - 20:05
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picko
post Thu, 13 Sep 2007 - 20:04
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QUOTE (Glacier2 @ Thu, 13 Sep 2007 - 20:35) *
If it is a £60 and 3 points offer, I would bite the hands off them.


Which the op would if he had it. You could ring the scammers office asking where it is.....

After recieving it you can let us know


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To bow down is a sign of dignity and, funnily enough in the eyes of the law a, quite legal request to have the CPS park one up ya back drive.
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phalanx
post Fri, 14 Sep 2007 - 08:30
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Just send them a letter/phone to get it cleared up...
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The Rookie
post Fri, 14 Sep 2007 - 11:06
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My suspiscion is that it is a stock letter and they have neglected to correct it for your speed, which is why the CoFP isn't in there, however, if you phone and ask its possible they will make another oversight! If you phone be really casual and matter of fact about it and DON'T mention your speed!

Simon


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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