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Further steps notice, Threads merged
Unconvincingalia...
post Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 22:02
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Hi everyone, some help appreciated.

Our wonderful legal system has seen fit to send my wife a big red further steps notice, informing her that she needs to pay around £800 or they'll send the baliffs round. Apparently we have failed to make payment as directed, but there is no clue here as to why she has been directed to pay anything. We've not had any previous letters that could relate to this.

So I got on google and found it is likely a driving offence. Checked the DVLA and it turns out she was given 6 points and a fine around Christmas for failure to identify the driver. We've received no letters about this and had no idea until now. Two relevant points -
1) her licence is in the wrong address (i know, now fixed)
2) the date of the offence is about a week after she bought the car. The address on the v5 is correct.

I understand I need to file a statutory declaration asap by calling the court.

Anything I need to do first?
Anything I need to do after, based on the above points?
Any other help, tips, etc. appreciated too

Thanks



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post Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 22:02
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Unconvincingalia...
post Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 15:51
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Thanks again NewJudge, that's reassuring. Let's hope she can make the deal there and then, as I don't like the thought of pleading not guilty and banking on the deal later. From what you say it sounds like the risk of refusal is low, but I guess worst case they refuse the deal at the second hearing and she then has to reverse her plea which puts us back where we are now plus maybe court costs. Not too worried though, as you say- it's an everyday thing for them.

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southpaw82
post Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 20:36
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QUOTE (NewJudge @ Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 16:18) *
You can carry out a SD at a solicitors (they usually charge you about £10).

I’ve not met one who charges. IIRC, the charge to do so is capped at £5 inclusive of VAT (The Commissioners for Oaths (Fees) Order 1993 for solicitors, the Commissioners for Oaths (Authorised Persons) (Fees) Order 1993 for everyone else). It’s pointless charging.


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NewJudge
post Sat, 15 Sep 2018 - 12:27
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 21:36) *
QUOTE (NewJudge @ Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 16:18) *
You can carry out a SD at a solicitors (they usually charge you about £10).

I’ve not met one who charges. IIRC, the charge to do so is capped at £5 inclusive of VAT (The Commissioners for Oaths (Fees) Order 1993 for solicitors, the Commissioners for Oaths (Authorised Persons) (Fees) Order 1993 for everyone else). It’s pointless charging.

Thanks, sp. I was going on "hearsay"!
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Logician
post Sat, 15 Sep 2018 - 12:48
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 21:36) *
QUOTE (NewJudge @ Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 16:18) *
You can carry out a SD at a solicitors (they usually charge you about £10).
I’ve not met one who charges. IIRC, the charge to do so is capped at £5 inclusive of VAT (The Commissioners for Oaths (Fees) Order 1993 for solicitors, the Commissioners for Oaths (Authorised Persons) (Fees) Order 1993 for everyone else). It’s pointless charging.


The first time I was sent to get a document sworn by a solicitor, he asked for the fee in cash and put it straight in his pocket. Bought him a drink I suppose.



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southpaw82
post Sat, 15 Sep 2018 - 12:58
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QUOTE (Logician @ Sat, 15 Sep 2018 - 13:48) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 21:36) *
QUOTE (NewJudge @ Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 16:18) *
You can carry out a SD at a solicitors (they usually charge you about £10).
I’ve not met one who charges. IIRC, the charge to do so is capped at £5 inclusive of VAT (The Commissioners for Oaths (Fees) Order 1993 for solicitors, the Commissioners for Oaths (Authorised Persons) (Fees) Order 1993 for everyone else). It’s pointless charging.


The first time I was sent to get a document sworn by a solicitor, he asked for the fee in cash and put it straight in his pocket. Bought him a drink I suppose.

It’s a personal office, so the fee, if charged, is due to the commissioner, not their firm. How many firms abide by this I don’t know.


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Unconvincingalia...
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 09:29
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Hi all,

Original topic here
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...0&st=0&

And a similar question here
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=122775

This is the background:
My wife has received an MS90. First we heard was when the collection agency contacted us. We have booked a date to make a statutory declaration.

Here's where we are now:
We just had the paperwork through from the court, including details of the original offence (jumping a red light). The cover letter says that the court will hear the statory declaration, then she must be ready to enter a plea for the original charge(s).
Looking at the paperwork, she was charged with both jumping the red light and failing to identify the driver.
Previous advice from this forum has been to do th estat dec. then make a deal with the prosecutor to plead guilty to the red light in exchange for the MS90 being dropped. If there's no prosecutor there, then plead not guilty and try the deal again at trial.
I can see how this strategy works if, after the stat dec, she is only answering the MS90 charge, as if the prosecution doesn't want to do a deal she can just plead guilty and be no (or only marginally) worse off that currently (6 points, £880 fine)
In this case she is charged with two offences and the stat dec. will open both back up. I think she is probably guilty of both (we moved 3 years before the offence and didn't update the log book address, hence the MS90), so my concern is that the prosecution is unwilling to do a deal (and why would they, other than out of kindness!?) and she then gets done for both charges, meaning 9 points and a bigger fine. If that's the case we would obviously rather just forget the stat dec, pay the fine and move on.

Is the risk above a real one, or have I misunderstood something?
Anyone been to court in a similar circumstance?

Thanks!
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peterguk
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 09:34
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QUOTE (Unconvincingalias @ Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 10:29) *

Why start a new thread? One case - one thread. A Mod will merge.


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Redivi
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 09:46
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We have never known a prosecutor refuse to do the deal but she must plead Not Guilty to both charges until he/she agrees to drop the S172

It's such a nasty conviction causing insurance problems for the next five years that you never plead Guilty if there's the faintest hope of a successful defence

It follows that a Stat. Dec. cannot possibly make the situation worse

This post has been edited by Redivi: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 09:48
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Kickaha
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 10:59
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 10:46) *
We have never known a prosecutor refuse to do the deal but she must plead Not Guilty to both charges until he/she agrees to drop the S172

It's such a nasty conviction causing insurance problems for the next five years that you never plead Guilty if there's the faintest hope of a successful defence

It follows that a Stat. Dec. cannot possibly make the situation worse

There has been one case where the prosecutor did not do a deal and got a conviction on both charges, but that was because the defendant was being an arse about things.

If your wife pleads not guilty to both and they progress the S172 offence then it is unlikely that they will carry on with the red light offence as they would not have any evidence of who the driver was.

Having said that, if your wife speaks to the prosecutor it is more than likely that they would drop the 172 for a guilty plea to the red light.
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Logician
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 11:01
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It is a necessary pre-condition of doing a deal that she is charged with both offences, otherwise she cannot plead guilty to the red light offence. The point is it would be very hard to convict her of the red light offence unless she pleads guilty because there is no evidence she was driving the car, so in the extremely unlikely event the prosecutor refuses a deal she would maintain her not guilty plea and there would be no conviction. She does not have to plead guilty just because she is, it is up to the prosecution to prove guilt. The fact is that prosecutors regard the two offences as de facto alternatives, and prefer a conviction for the underlying offence. Your concerns are misplaced.


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Unconvincingalia...
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 11:04
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Happy to have the thread merged if that's what would be preferred. I figured the topic is slightly different, albeit same case, but I'm new here so happy to be overruled

Redivi- based on insurance comparison sites there seems to be very little difference in price between the two convictions (£25).
Do you know of a way to find out how the specific procecutor is going to view it prior to making the stat dec? Or do we need to make it and gamble?
Why do prosecutors agree to the deal? Seems to me that she jumped a light and she failed to update the address- that can only be her fault and I don't like it but it's hard to see why she should get off the MS90- her only defence is ignorance...
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Unconvincingalia...
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 11:28
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Kickaha, Logician- thanks, that makes sense.

I'll update in a couple of weeks when we get the verdict
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 14:06
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They seem to prefer the underlying offence, not MS90. Its too much of a catch all.
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southpaw82
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 19:30
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It’s some minor thing about doing justice.


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Unconvincingalia...
post Thu, 4 Oct 2018 - 21:15
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So court is all done and I thought I would make a note of the outcome here in case its of use to anyone else.

Brief summary of the issue:
Wife received a further steps notice asking for £880
Discovered she had 6 points on her licence- MS90 failure to identify driver. Dated about 9 months ago- we had no idea
Called court the next day and booked in to make a statutory declaration of ignorance of proceedings
Paperwork arrived with details of the charges: TS10 (running a red) and MS90. It said to be ready to plead to both charges immediately after making the statutory declaration.

So we went to court. Waited 2.5 hours then went in for 5 mins.
On arrival at court, the court usher asked how my wife intended to plead. We said we weren't sure, so she arranged for us to speak to the prosecutor prior to going in. When we spoke to the prosecutor (from "the police") we said that we were hoping that my wife could plead guilty to the TS10 in exchange for the MS90 being dropped. The prosecutor said something along the lines of "yes, that's how it works, it's one charge or the other". We said in that case my wife will plead guilty to the TS10. Note that I believe this conversation was unnecessary. We didn't make a deal as such, it was just the normal way the court deals with it (although we had no way to know this before we spoke to the prosecutor).
In court, the stat declaration was made, then my wife was asked how she pleaded to the TS10. She said guilty. Then the Magistrates were asked by the guy running the court if they would drop the MS90. They said yes. End result: 3 points and a £227 fine.

Worth noting that my wife had to make the guilty plea before the other charge was dropped. There was no deal made between us and the prosecutor, so in theory she could have been asked to plead to both charges. We had to take it on trust from the prosecutor that they wouldn't do that.

Other observations: a very formal but routine process. Before going in had to fill in a form about how much we earn, savings, employer, etc. Didn't seem to make any difference to the fine. They didn't ask for any mitigating circumstances before administering the fine.

My advice to someone in the same position: don't stress about it, it's routine. But worth asking to speak to the prosecutor before going into court, so that you can be sure how that particular court administers it.

Thanks again to all those on here who helped us out. Hopefully this now helps someone else out.
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The Rookie
post Fri, 5 Oct 2018 - 05:51
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As noted above, many courts and prosecutors treat them as if they are statutory alternatives even though they are not. I think the deal has got so common many probably genuinely believe they are.

If they were statutory alternatives it would only be possible to be convicted of one of the two, they are not so it remains possible to be guilty of, and convicted of, both.

An easy example of stat alternatives is dangerous driving and careless driving, a driver will be guilty of driving ‘badly’ but which if the two they are found guilty of depends on how badly they were driving (note, ignore the common English meanings of careless and dangerous as they don’t define the sense, careless you could call driving ‘badly’ and dangerous driving ‘really badly’!)


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Council PCN's
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