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UKPCM failed appeal - Harlesden residential car park, Help with Failed appeal
EHR
post Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 18:35
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Dear Experts,
I made the foolish attempt to challenge a ticket without your help, and my appeal has been rejected. Before I pay the fine, which they have now increased to £100, I want to check it through with you in case there's any hope either of reducing the fine or of further appeal.

The original offence occurred on 06 07 19 when I parked in the private carpark by my allotment for which we have a shared permit.
Basically the dispensation code which I had placed in my windscreen had blown off. I did not know I had got a ticket until it arrived by post, their date of sending 12 07 2019

I appealed to UKCMP on 26 07 19 with a photo of the note and explanation, but they rejected it on 4 09 19 with this 2 page letter:
Page 1 https://ibb.co/1XJ4LpV
Page 2 https://ibb.co/L6WMZ5k


I chose to appeal to the IAS on 23 09 19 with this letter: https://ibb.co/R0yc9Xd which goes into more detail about whether UKPCM were at fault for not issuing us with a valid permit.

UKPCM restated their original rejection - https://ibb.co/qxLqXn7
with their photos: My Car My Empty screen and Their Signage

I responded on 03 10 19 with a short note suggesting they had no right to issue a fine: https://ibb.co/XVHFx8x

But on 21/10 19 the adjudicator dismissed the appeal with this letter: https://ibb.co/z26WCCFVisit My Website

And today 30 10 19 I have a letter from UKCPM stating I have to pay £100. Do I just have to swallow it or is there any way out?

Your advice enormously appreciated.
Best, EHR

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post Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 18:35
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ostell
post Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 18:43
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Appealing to the IAS is almost bound to be rejected. What do the signs say,
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EHR
post Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 19:01
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The sign says 'A valid UK CPM Permit must be clearly displayed in the front windscreen at all times': https://ibb.co/vxDvWfc

But they hadn't issued us with a permit, we didn't even know there had been a change of parking contractor and my colleague had been forced to phone the Housing Association to find out why it hadn't arrived. Apparently they'd lost our contact address. That was when we got given a dispensation code.

My argument was that their administrative error meant we did not have the proper permit and so had to improvise - which led to the note blowing off my windscreen.
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 10:19
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EVen with a note you woul dhave had a PCN. A note does nothing.

You have a good argument - the HA changed provider, didnt send out new permits, didnt realise your address was lost (erm, surely they should know!) etc
What does your LEASE say about the need to show permits? Get it out and check. Precise wording, no guessing.
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EHR
post Thu, 31 Oct 2019 - 19:00
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Thanks nosferatu1001

I spoke to someone at Network Homes (who own the flats & car park) today to request a copy of the parking lease, but she says that since I am not a resident she cannot send me a copy.
She told me that it essentially says we have to display a permit or a dispensation code at all times so that the parking attendants can distinguish legit parking from non-legit.
And that allotment holders are treated no differently from residents. (Though we never had a copy of the lease, or got informed of the change of parking provider)
She is putting in a request to her superiors to see if she can send an extract of the relevant section.
But it might take too long and their charge will go up another £60 soon...
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The Rookie
post Fri, 1 Nov 2019 - 08:20
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And what does it say in the lease for the allotment about parking? I bet there is no mention of permits.

Of course she would say that, its the easy way out for them. they may have forgotten the contract they already have with you!


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EHR
post Fri, 1 Nov 2019 - 08:32
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Pretty certain there is no contract with the allotment people. Does that help? Or would that then render us the same as any non resident who illegitimately parks in the car park which is meant for residents?

NB turns out that it was merger that meant that the previous parking company became the new UKCPM.

This post has been edited by EHR: Fri, 1 Nov 2019 - 08:33
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The Rookie
post Fri, 1 Nov 2019 - 08:52
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Presumably you pay something for the allotment so you must have a lease/contract!


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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EHR
post Fri, 1 Nov 2019 - 09:15
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Yes we have a contract with Brent council for the allotments but I doubt there is anything in it about parking - they do not have to provide that.
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The Rookie
post Fri, 1 Nov 2019 - 09:20
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Well if you don't want to bother, just say so.....

It's not just parking, anything about communal areas and similar language


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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EHR
post Fri, 1 Nov 2019 - 09:56
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Apologies Rookie - I do definitely want to bother - I will see if there's anything in there and come back to you!
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 4 Nov 2019 - 10:41
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Finally
Thats what we keep asking for
ANY rights to park. If you dont have any rights granted then what else makes you think you can park there?
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EHR
post Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 14:28
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Hi all, I have spent the last week trying to get copies of tenancy agreements/ leases from Brent council and Network Housing who are not very helpful, so apologies for slowness.
I have got the allotment tenancy agreement - it makes no mention of anything to do with parking. You can see it all here if anyone wants to double check:

https://ibb.co/MC1fS8Q
https://ibb.co/p6q6yFm
https://ibb.co/0XfV5pK
https://ibb.co/JmBWttb
https://ibb.co/Y2pVsbX
https://ibb.co/KGmWzbt

I have asked Brent Parks Dept to request a copy of the housing tenants lease agreement from Network Homes, but I wouldn't hold your breath.

I am also trying to find any correspondence between the allotments and the previous parking contractor - I have a feeling all we have is the permit itself with the same rules about displaying at all times - and since it it is obsolete it is probably in the bin.

I have a long email trail with the Housing developers dating back to before the housing and its carparks were built which shows the agreement to give us allocated spaces. This is the developers plans for the carpark which we marked up with our comments about whether they had created enough access and 'presumably allotment owners will be given keys/fob': https://ibb.co/FmFRYst

During the changeover to the new parking contractor this allocation seems to have been unilaterally removed without any consultation with us.


So I could probably prove that UKPCM illegally changed the rules/ took down the bollards & signage which designated that the two parking spaces were just for allotment holders.
And I might be able to argue that since we submitted a list of our vehicle reg's they should have known I was an allotment holder parking in one of the spaces previously allocated just for us. But since we were still meant to display the permits/ dispensation code at all times, I still only have the fact that the dispensation code blew off my dashboard as reason for not complying.

But UKPCM tell me I cannot challenge this further except by going to court and that I have until 19th November to pay at the current rate of £100, after which it will go up to £160.

How is this looking to your expert eyes?


Many thanks EHR

This post has been edited by EHR: Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 17:05
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 18:13
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They take it to court, not you. They're the ones claiming you owe money, so they have to ask a court to confirm it. You don't have to do anything until that process starts.

If you have confirmation from when permission for this was granted that two spaces were to be made available then you have something that predates the entire setup, no?

Be clearGive us a timeline. It's a muddle so far. Codes permits etc on,y matter if you don't have something agreed that supersedes what the signs say
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SchoolRunMum
post Thu, 14 Nov 2019 - 22:23
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QUOTE
But UKPCM tell me I cannot challenge this further except by going to court and that I have until 19th November to pay at the current rate of £100, after which it will go up to £160.


It can't go up to £160. Two statute laws and one binding case law say so.

Please see the completed cases section where I posted abut the Southampton case on Monday, where a barrister lost when trying to argue that £160 was actually OK...as a result, unless they appeal, ALL parking cases in the Soton and IOW area are likely to be strangled at birth if they add sixty quid (any PPC). And other area Judges can be taken to the same facts by Defendants as part of a standard defence.

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EHR
post Fri, 15 Nov 2019 - 00:13
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That is great news SchoolRunMum - i will take a look. So basically I can wait until they take me to court and then the worst they can do is fine me £100? cool.gif
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EHR
post Fri, 15 Nov 2019 - 00:43
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nosferatu1001 this is the timeline - it goes back a long way!

Spring 2009 we learnt that the land next to our allotments was to be developed - flats and a youth centre would block off the area where we had been able to park next to and access the allotments.

June 2009 At a meeting with 3 allotment holders, the Brent Allotments Officer, and the flat developers - Stadium Housing - we managed to get an agreement that we would have decent access and 2 parking places. It was part of their section 106 requirements - obligations that developers have towards local communities.

We understood that these parking places would be free - but we never got that in writing, partly because most of the correspondence was being done by the allotments officer and his job got axed. But we were promised to be compensated for any costs that we would incur because of the building works - and parking is a cost.

May 2011. We got hold of the plans which showed the parking places and made our comments. ( as posted b4: https://ibb.co/FmFRYst )

May 2012. The building work was completed. The company managing it were called Network Housing. There was a fob entry system on the gate to the car park and a parking management company. They put signage and lockable bollards in to protect our 2 spaces from other residents.

But we then spent 5 years! trying to get our free permits and fobs off them - they obfuscated: decided they wanted to charge for the parking and for upkeep of paths, to only give us 2 fobs, that we needed to sign a conduct agreement with them, but they never sent it. I wrote numerous emails getting nowhere, we got local councillors involved, but still nothing happened.

In Aug 2017 due to email exhaustion and frustration, I gave up and my colleague Louisa took over the emailing. She finally got 2 permits and one fob - but only by paying for them. The permits state the parking management's rules. One gate fob between 20 plot holders was not practical. I only used the car park when the gate got stuck open.

Then in July 2019, the parking company changed or merged and became UKPCM and they took down the signage for our 2 spaces, failed to send us new permits and then eventually issued a dispensation code. The gate was stuck open so I used the space with the code on the note which blew off my windscreen.

And got a ticket.

So... Will that stand up in court if I have to go to it?

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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 15 Nov 2019 - 11:42
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Ah, so permits were paid for? What was agreed to when apyment was made? As its possible there is now a contract in place

Howveer you can argue that this is estopped - no contract was needed as you have a superior right of aceess

BUt its a tricky argument

SO this is NOT a fine. STOP calling it that.

It should do - but court is not g'teed. We have a very good record here adn on MSE
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