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COllided with a scooter whilst starting u-turn
Nickle
post Thu, 9 May 2019 - 17:17
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Hi, I don't know if I should be posting any exact details on here, because I just got a letter from the police to describe what happened and saying alleged offence - driving without due care and attention, so I guess that means this is now an investigation?

I went to make a U-turn. Single carriageway on our side, dual on the other side. Just after some pedestrian lights. I was doing around 15-20mph.
I checked my mirrors, looked right, traffic was way back, nothing coming the other way, so I indicated right, slowed the car and started turning. Immediately a scooter scrapped down the side of my door.
He's fine, he didn't fall off or anything, that's really all I was concerned with at the time, because I felt really awful and totally shocked that he was even there and how could I not have seen him, given that it was at night.
We took photos, exchanged details and he called the police, he wanted an ambulance and insisted not to move the vehicles until they arrived. When the police said they were not coming, we moved out of the way, exchanged details, and both went on our way.

I'm just a bit concerned now with being alleged to cause this offence, I've never experienced anything like this before. If I was just being wreckless or careless then ok, I'l accept it, but I checked as I always have if I'm making any kind of turn. I honestly can't answer why I didn't see him and I do feel sincerely sorry about that, but it was not because I didn't look. But also, how did he end up there? We were only about 4 car lengths past an island in the road.
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post Thu, 9 May 2019 - 17:17
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The Rookie
post Thu, 9 May 2019 - 17:29
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Well clearly you were driving without due care and attention otherwise you would have seen him, however IF he reports it the police aren’t likely to take action for a minor moment of inattentiveness though it’s not impossible.


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Nickle
post Thu, 9 May 2019 - 17:45
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 9 May 2019 - 18:29) *
Well clearly you were driving without due care and attention otherwise you would have seen him, however IF he reports it the police aren’t likely to take action for a minor moment of inattentiveness though it’s not impossible.

Ok thank you. He must have reported it to the police for this letter to arrive, he called them immediately at the time aswell.
I'm just at an absolute loss as to how I didn't see him, and it is spooking the hell out of me all day & night. But anyway, I just thank my lucky stars that whatever happens now, it wasn't worse than that.
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Churchmouse
post Thu, 9 May 2019 - 22:57
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QUOTE (Nickle @ Thu, 9 May 2019 - 18:45) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 9 May 2019 - 18:29) *
Well clearly you were driving without due care and attention otherwise you would have seen him, however IF he reports it the police aren’t likely to take action for a minor moment of inattentiveness though it’s not impossible.

Ok thank you. He must have reported it to the police for this letter to arrive, he called them immediately at the time aswell.
I'm just at an absolute loss as to how I didn't see him, and it is spooking the hell out of me all day & night. But anyway, I just thank my lucky stars that whatever happens now, it wasn't worse than that.

It happens all the time. There's even a term for it: "SMIDSY" (sorry mate I didn't see you).

--Churchmouse
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TonyS
post Fri, 10 May 2019 - 10:06
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But I guess equally the motorcyclist didn't see the indicators.
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Churchmouse
post Fri, 10 May 2019 - 13:32
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QUOTE (TonyS @ Fri, 10 May 2019 - 11:06) *
But I guess equally the motorcyclist didn't see the indicators.

How do you know that?

We do know that the OP did not see him, and is sorry about it, from the words, "I didn't see him" and "I do feel sincerely sorry about that".

--Churchmouse
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TonyS
post Fri, 10 May 2019 - 14:26
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QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Fri, 10 May 2019 - 14:32) *
QUOTE (TonyS @ Fri, 10 May 2019 - 11:06) *
But I guess equally the motorcyclist didn't see the indicators.

How do you know that?

Well I did say it was a guess. Taking the OP at his word that he was in fact indicating as he said, either the motorcyclist didn't see the indicators or he decided to overtake anyway.
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Nickle
post Fri, 10 May 2019 - 22:59
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Yes 100% I did put my indicator on.
For whatever it's worth, no he definitely should not have been overtaking me there. It was just after a pedestrian crossing, so I'm guessing he must have committed to getting past me as soon as we were clear of the island in the road. We must both have made our decision to manouver at the same time, but nonetheless I've always been extra careful when I know there is a bike around me and try my best to make sure he can see that I know he is there. I should have seen him and I didn't. I just feel extra bad because it was a guy on a bike.
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Churchmouse
post Sun, 12 May 2019 - 11:31
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QUOTE (TonyS @ Fri, 10 May 2019 - 15:26) *
QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Fri, 10 May 2019 - 14:32) *
QUOTE (TonyS @ Fri, 10 May 2019 - 11:06) *
But I guess equally the motorcyclist didn't see the indicators.

How do you know that?

Well I did say it was a guess. Taking the OP at his word that he was in fact indicating as he said, either the motorcyclist didn't see the indicators or he decided to overtake anyway.

Or the indicators came on when it was too late to react? Who knows. Unfortunately, the OP's biggest problem is that a vehicle that was there was not seen, and it is difficult to behave appropriately if you lack critical information.

Back to the OP's question, the police are asking for his/her version of the events. The letter should not be ignored.

--Churchmouse
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Nickle
post Sun, 12 May 2019 - 15:25
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Well yes, that's my biggest problem, he was there.
I don't know if I would be doing something wrong(legally) by showing you the exact location, but it was something similar to this traffic island, except it was pedestrian lights. Single carriageway our side, dual on the other, there were cars parked just after the island on our side, where the zig zag ended.

The collision happened right about where that 4x4 is (approx 3-4 car lengths after the island), it was on a 20mph road, so he was on that central part just after the island. To my mind, he must have been either too close, or going too fast to have been passing me such a short distance from the traffic island.
But nonetheless, that doesn't excuse my part, or explain how/why I didn't see him, so I accept that. He may not have had his lights on for all I know, that's the one and only thing that would allow me to sleep better in future, because it really bothers me how I could miss a headlight that was either right behind me, or next to me, when I saw clearly the traffic coming around the corner a few hundred yards back, which is what made me decide I had plenty of space to turn.
I just checked the photos I took of the scene and in all of them, my lights are on and his are off, but I don't know if his lights go off automatically when the bike is stopped.

My concern really is getting prosecuted for driving without due care and attention. I did everything I would normally do.
My bad that I didn't see him, but I didn't just wrecklessly spin the car in the road with no indication and without checking my mirrors, but if the bare fact that I didn't see him = driving without due care and attention, then ok, I'll just have to hope for the best and accept whatever comes of it.

I'm not in New Zealand by the way, this is just the closest illustration I could find on google.


This post has been edited by Nickle: Sun, 12 May 2019 - 16:13
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The Rookie
post Sun, 12 May 2019 - 17:37
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Why not just share the google street view link?


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
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Nickle
post Sun, 12 May 2019 - 18:15
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 12 May 2019 - 18:37) *
Why not just share the google street view link?


https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5419666,-0....6384!8i8192


I wasn't sure if I would be breaking some law if the police are investigating it and I'm posting about it on the internet.
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cp8759
post Sun, 12 May 2019 - 19:18
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QUOTE (Nickle @ Sun, 12 May 2019 - 19:15) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 12 May 2019 - 18:37) *
Why not just share the google street view link?


https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5419666,-0....6384!8i8192


I wasn't sure if I would be breaking some law if the police are investigating it and I'm posting about it on the internet.

If it were a crime to report that the police are investigating something, an awful lot of journalists would be in prison.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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stamfordman
post Sun, 12 May 2019 - 19:53
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Don't beat yourself up over this - there are blind spots and cyclists and motorcyclist often appear from them especially in London. Motorcyclists often break the speed limit and weave between traffic. There is no way you can spot them all and they bear responsibility for not watching what traffic is doing.

That said it is always best not to make unpredictable moves and a u-turn can be one.

Did he have his lights on?

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andy_foster
post Sun, 12 May 2019 - 20:43
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Dual carriageways and single carriageways are defined by whether or not there is a physical barrier or area of land (other than a traffic) island separating the carriageways, not how many lanes are in the carriageway(s).

Despite what some might think, pulling across the path of another vehicle without properly checking your blind spot(s) generally makes you liable, or at least partially liable.


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"Whatever the intention of Parliament was, or was not, the law is quite clear." - The Rookie
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Nickle
post Sun, 12 May 2019 - 23:15
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 12 May 2019 - 20:53) *
Don't beat yourself up over this - there are blind spots and cyclists and motorcyclist often appear from them especially in London. Motorcyclists often break the speed limit and weave between traffic. There is no way you can spot them all and they bear responsibility for not watching what traffic is doing.

That said it is always best not to make unpredictable moves and a u-turn can be one.

Did he have his lights on?

Its hard not to. I suppose partly because many of my family are life-long bikers, a friend of mine killed herself on her bike way back when we were youngsters. So for me to turn my car and find a bike scrape along my door just makes me feel sick enough as it is, but even more so because I didn't see him and I can't for the life of me answer why.
And furthermore now, I'll have a claim against me and possible prosecution for bad driving. The claim and the prosecution, I can deal with. The fact that I didn't see him will bother me for a long time to come, but at least he wasn't hurt, so I can be thankful for that.

I honestly can't tell you if his lights were on or off at the time. They are off in all the photos, but he had stopped and got off by then, so that means nothing.

QUOTE (andy_foster @ Sun, 12 May 2019 - 21:43) *
Dual carriageways and single carriageways are defined by whether or not there is a physical barrier or area of land (other than a traffic) island separating the carriageways, not how many lanes are in the carriageway(s).

Despite what some might think, pulling across the path of another vehicle without properly checking your blind spot(s) generally makes you liable, or at least partially liable.

The thing is, I did check my blind spots (assuming you mean looking over my shoulder, to see what is to the right of my car), I also checked both mirrors, it's just a standard thing to do, especially when turning around. I didn't see him, that's a fact, but I definitely did look and that's pecisely what is bugging me so much.

This post has been edited by Nickle: Sun, 12 May 2019 - 23:23
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The Rookie
post Mon, 13 May 2019 - 02:14
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I understand why it’s bugging you, it’s not a legal issue but it leaves you with that ‘is there someone I haven’t seen’ feeling each time you do a manoeuvre for a while.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Council PCN's
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Earl Purple
post Mon, 13 May 2019 - 08:04
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If it was at night, then his lights must have been visible. Scooters have their lights on all the time, but it's more visible at night.

It's difficult to know what your exact manoeuvre was. If you pulled right over to the left-hand side of the road to give yourself more room to turn, and slowed down a lot, it may have appeared you were pulling over, then indicated right to pull out again. Thus the scooter had no idea you were intending a U-turn.

In general you do not pass a vehicle on the right hand side which is showing the right indicator, but that doesn't apply when they are pulling out of a parking space and you are simply not letting them out. Vehicles that do that and intend to turn at the same time have to be extra vigilant.

For insurance purpose there is likely to be a claim against you, including a whiplash claim.
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NeverMind
post Mon, 13 May 2019 - 08:42
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Don't beat yourself up over it. I ride a motorcycle daily, and it's not unusual for cars to pull out on me in broad daylight. It's not that they didn't look - or they'd be pulling out on cars too - I'm convinced it's just that they are looking for cars, and expecting to see cars, and because of the weird way your brain works when it's doing frequent or automatic tasks, if they don't see a car something in your brain says "all clear". There are some interesting psychology research projects in there! For the future: Mirror, shoulder check, and think bike. It's not just a slogan. wink.gif

QUOTE (Earl Purple @ Mon, 13 May 2019 - 09:04) *
If it was at night, then his lights must have been visible. More recent scooters have their lights on all the time, but it's more visible at night.


Fixed that for you. Older scooters and motorcycles don't always have automatic lights. I think it became a Euro compliance feature in the mid 2000s

This post has been edited by NeverMind: Mon, 13 May 2019 - 08:50
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Nickle
post Mon, 13 May 2019 - 09:18
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QUOTE (NeverMind @ Mon, 13 May 2019 - 09:42) *
Don't beat yourself up over it. I ride a motorcycle daily, and it's not unusual for cars to pull out on me in broad daylight. It's not that they didn't look - or they'd be pulling out on cars too - I'm convinced it's just that they are looking for cars, and expecting to see cars, and because of the weird way your brain works when it's doing frequent or automatic tasks, if they don't see a car something in your brain says "all clear". There are some interesting psychology research projects in there! For the future: Mirror, shoulder check, and think bike. It's not just a slogan. wink.gif

Fixed that for you. Older scooters and motorcycles don't always have automatic lights. I think it became a Euro compliance feature in the mid 2000s

It was 4 years old. The keys are in the ignition in my photos, lights are off, but again this is maybe just me trying to find an answer, rather than any proof that he was driving with his lights off.
For what it's worth, think bike has always been burned into the back of my eyeballs, ever since I started using the road. That won't change, but I will, as the Rookie says be more doubtful and perhaps over cautious now. I'll wait and pull into a side road now, even on an empty road at night, just to be sure this can't happen again.

QUOTE (Earl Purple @ Mon, 13 May 2019 - 09:04) *
If it was at night, then his lights must have been visible. Scooters have their lights on all the time, but it's more visible at night.

It's difficult to know what your exact manoeuvre was. If you pulled right over to the left-hand side of the road to give yourself more room to turn, and slowed down a lot, it may have appeared you were pulling over, then indicated right to pull out again. Thus the scooter had no idea you were intending a U-turn.

In general you do not pass a vehicle on the right hand side which is showing the right indicator, but that doesn't apply when they are pulling out of a parking space and you are simply not letting them out. Vehicles that do that and intend to turn at the same time have to be extra vigilant.

For insurance purpose there is likely to be a claim against you, including a whiplash claim.

No, I didn't pull to the left, since I didn't need to, but there were cars parked there anyway, I drove right along the white line.
There was a dual carriagway on the other side, so that was more than enough space for me to complete the turn. It was a glancing contact, as it happened literally the moment I steered right.

I'm expecting he's gonna claim whatever he can yes, I already got that from talking to him, he was asking the police to send an ambulance.

Anyway, I'll just fill in the forms and be honest and wait and see what happens, I suppose thats all I can do.

This post has been edited by Nickle: Mon, 13 May 2019 - 09:23
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