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Wrongly given NIP?
terzio
post Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 03:25
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Hi all,

I come to this forum in the hope that I can gain some advice on a recent issue I've had with a speeding ticket.

Last week, I was driving along a dual carriageway at 40mph, when I noted a police speed van at the side of the road. I thought nothing at the time - as I believed myself to be within the specified limit on said road.

Unfortunately, I received an NIP through the post three days later, informing me that I'd been caught speeding - doing 40 in a 30.

Having recoiled in surprise, I went back to check the road's speed limits. The dual carriageway in question begins as a 40 - and then turns into a 30 as it comes towards a roundabout. The issue I have is that from what I can recall, the particular part of the road that the van was positioned in (and where I have allegedly been caught) falls under the 40mph zone. Yet, I have still received a ticket.

Am I missing something here, or have the police made an error? Part of me feels that they wouldn't have sent a NIP if they weren't certain they could prosecute me - although I have little experience with this type of thing.

What would be the next best step? There is a number on the NIP which I'm planning on ringing; perhaps I could also send an email? Or is the only form of appeal the pursuit of a court hearing?

Thanks in advance for any advice.
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post Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 03:25
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The Rookie
post Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 03:43
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The laser in the van has a range of up to 1km (most common make, others are similar), is it possible you were speeding in the 30 limit and he pinged you there?

If you write and ask for photos ‘to help confirm the drivers ID’ or similar wording (don’t just demand ‘evidence’ or ‘proof’) this will almost certainly help confirm where exactly you where when they pinged you.


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terzio
post Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 03:55
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 03:43) *
The laser in the van has a range of up to 1km (most common make, others are similar), is it possible you were speeding in the 30 limit and he pinged you there?

If you write and ask for photos ‘to help confirm the drivers ID’ or similar wording (don’t just demand ‘evidence’ or ‘proof’) this will almost certainly help confirm where exactly you where when they pinged you.


Immediately reduced my speed to 30 as soon as I spotted the van, then ran into traffic further down the road (on and past the roundabout) so I don't think I was going over the 30 limit even a few hundred yards down the road. Did not know about the laser thing - but the camera was facing oncoming traffic so wouldn't have been able to follow me once I had passed I assume? I will ask for pictures. Is it best to just send an email/ring?

This post has been edited by terzio: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 03:59
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Jlc
post Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 07:24
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What’s the location on the NIP?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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The Rookie
post Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 07:30
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QUOTE (terzio @ Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 04:55) *
Immediately reduced my speed to 30 as soon as I spotted the van

There you are then, it takes 1/3 of a second to measure your speed, they are watching and waiting for the next target and almost certainly measured your speed before your foot was even on the brake pedal.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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666
post Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 08:03
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QUOTE (terzio @ Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 03:55) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 03:43) *
The laser in the van has a range of up to 1km (most common make, others are similar), is it possible you were speeding in the 30 limit and he pinged you there?

If you write and ask for photos ‘to help confirm the drivers ID’ or similar wording (don’t just demand ‘evidence’ or ‘proof’) this will almost certainly help confirm where exactly you where when they pinged you.


Immediately reduced my speed to 30 as soon as I spotted the van, then ran into traffic further down the road (on and past the roundabout) so I don't think I was going over the 30 limit even a few hundred yards down the road. Did not know about the laser thing - but the camera was facing oncoming traffic so wouldn't have been able to follow me once I had passed I assume? I will ask for pictures. Is it best to just send an email/ring?

In the OP you said you believed you were driving within t he limit. So why did you reduce your speed, and why 30?
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terzio
post Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 14:14
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 07:24) *
What’s the location on the NIP?


It's the A6004 Ling Road in Loughborough, Leicestershire.

QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 07:30) *
QUOTE (terzio @ Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 04:55) *
Immediately reduced my speed to 30 as soon as I spotted the van

There you are then, it takes 1/3 of a second to measure your speed, they are watching and waiting for the next target and almost certainly measured your speed before your foot was even on the brake pedal.


QUOTE (666 @ Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 08:03) *
In the OP you said you believed you were driving within t he limit. So why did you reduce your speed, and why 30?


Reducing speed when seeing the van was a natural, immediate reaction. I then realised I was still within the specified 40 zone anyway, so it was unnecessary.
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cp8759
post Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 15:55
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I would write back asking for "photos to help identify the driver", they will normally oblige. You should note this doesn't stop the 28 day clock from ticking, the driver nomination must be returned within that time-frame no matter what.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 15:56


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Jlc
post Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 15:56
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From GSV (here) that road does go from 40mph to 30mph.

The exact point of capture is critical. What often occurs is that the camera unit targets the change of limit and captures those who do not decelerate before entering the lower limit. (There is no grace to slow within the limit)

This is assuming the sign is in the correct place (with regards to any relevant traffic order).

Any enforcement session should have a log where the limit is checked and confirmed (visually at least) prior to commencing.

It is more likely you were pinged in the 30mph part - but anything is possible.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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notmeatloaf
post Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 16:01
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You need to write back and ask for photos "to help identify the driver". Do not mention "evidence" or that you are disputing it, otherwise they will clam up. They should then send you a photo hopefully containing both your speed measurement and also the distance, in metres, it was measured from.

You can then use Google Maps to measure from the approximate position of the camera van to where your speed was measured.

They are meant to use the gun to measure the distance to the terminal signs so this sort of thing doesn't happen.

Whatever you do reply to the S172 request within 28 days as that is an offence in and of itself whether you were speeding or not.

Hopefully if you are right as a concerned motorist you will probably want to let the local press know so that other people who were caught know about the police's carelessness.

This post has been edited by notmeatloaf: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 16:01
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terzio
post Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 19:08
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Thanks to everyone's advice - I decided to request photographic evidence, and today have received a couple of photos. With the evidence, I have received a note stating that the force are 'satisfied your vehicle was within the 30 mph limit'.

However, there are a few discrepancies in what they have sent me. Firstly, of the two pictures I have been sent - one displays the speed the vehicle was going at - which was 40mph. The second picture - which is a closer shot (when my vehicle was close to passing the speed van) has been left blank in the area where the car's speed should be displayed.

Secondly, there are two timestamps on each picture. One which suggests that each shot was taken a second apart - and another which suggests that the pictures were taken 1 minute and 7 seconds apart.

Thirdly, the note & evidence states that my car was photographed whilst 80 metres away from the speed van. I may be mistaken - but I believe this to be a sizeable amount (nearly the length of a football pitch). From this distance, I am inclined to believe that the speed limit was still in the 40mph zone.

I'd be interested to hear thoughts on this - particularly about the speed seemingly being erased from the second screenshot. Is this normal practice? If so, I am considering just giving in and taking the points (speed awareness course isn't an option for me).
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southpaw82
post Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 19:15
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QUOTE (terzio @ Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 19:08) *
I'd be interested to hear thoughts on this - particularly about the speed seemingly being erased from the second screenshot. Is this normal practice? If so, I am considering just giving in and taking the points (speed awareness course isn't an option for me).

The speed is only captured once and is then displayed (as a static figure) for a short period of time. Absolutely nothing unusual in it not being in a subsequent picture. They appear to have provided you with the speed capture and a later, closer shot to help you in identifying the driver.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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Jlc
post Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 19:58
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Indeed, they are stills from a video.

Can we see the pics?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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terzio
post Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 20:13
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 19:58) *
Indeed, they are stills from a video.

Can we see the pics?


Absolutely. I've attached an image to this post.

Also, it looks as if the camera is a lot closer than 80 metres away? Although I appreciate they may be zooming in.
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Jlc
post Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 20:15
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Can't see any photo's.

There's a 'foreshortening' effect on the camera which often makes the car seem closer. (But as already noted, perhaps the car was closer)


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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BaggieBoy
post Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 20:16
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QUOTE (terzio @ Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 20:13) *
I've attached an image to this post.

Nope.
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terzio
post Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 20:26
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Should work.
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Jlc
post Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 20:40
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Nothing untoward. Both are a second apart. (Not 1 min 7 secs)

There only query is the point of ping - whether it's in or out of the 30mph...

Where was the camera sitting?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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terzio
post Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 20:52
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 20:40) *
Nothing untoward. Both are a second apart. (Not 1 min 7 secs)

There only query is the point of ping - whether it's in or out of the 30mph...

Where was the camera sitting?


You're right, seems I misread one of the timestamps.

The camera was on the left side of the road, by 'lamp post number 12'. Only issue with these pictures is they're not really helpful with regards to locating where I was exactly on the road in relation to the limit signs.
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peterguk
post Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 20:57
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QUOTE (terzio @ Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 20:52) *
The camera was on the left side of the road, by 'lamp post number 12'.


So get in your car, take a long tape measure and go measure from lamp post to limit sign.

This post has been edited by peterguk: Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 20:57


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