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Driving without MOT & Due care and Attention
Fine76
post Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 08:54
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I had an accident with the police vehicle last year and I have just received the court papers to attend court on the 2 above charges.

it was indicated that the police vehicle flipped twice and in one of the witnesses statement as well, it was indicated that I was driving at approximately 50m/h on a 50m/h road but I failed to stop and the roundavout and I hit the police vehicle coming on my right.

About the MOT, I wasn't aware that the MOT failed its text as it was done by a family member who has since returned to America.

on not stopping at the roundabout, I honestly don't know what happened, as tests were conducted on me at the accident scene, I wasn't not on drugs neither was I over the alcohol limit, I was way below it actually.

please what are my options here, I already have a 3 points on my licence last year for doing 37m/h on a 30m/h road.

I believe I blacked out for a few second as my only daughter who is 14 was also in the car with me .

please what should my defence be and do I need a lawyer to represent me in court?

thanks a million
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post Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 08:54
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BaggieBoy
post Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 09:28
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QUOTE (Fine76 @ Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 08:54) *
About the MOT, I wasn't aware that the MOT failed its text as it was done by a family member who has since returned to America.

I have no idea what "MOT failed its text" means.

QUOTE (Fine76 @ Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 08:54) *
I believe I blacked out for a few second as my only daughter who is 14 was also in the car with me .

Have you any previous medical history of blacking out?
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The Rookie
post Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 10:07
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“Wasn’t not on drugs” is presumably a typo?

I don’t see you have any sort of a defence to the MOT question unless you could have that family member provide a statement saying they told you it had passed the MOT (such that a special reasons not to endorse plea may have some legs), even that would be questionable as they would be unable to attend court for a cross exam, but it’s a small fine, no points, only.

As for the due care, you would have a defence if you can prove to the courts satisfaction that they you genuinely had ‘blacked out’ to the extent that you weren’t responsible for your actions, to back that up you would need medical opinion, you presumably saw the GP afterwards and have had some tests/checks? You presumably stopped driving until medical opinion was that it was safe (as safe as anyone else) to drive again? Without that you would lack credibility I fear.


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bearclaw
post Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 10:10
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Have you consulted the GP and/or notified DVLA? If you are going to use the blackout as a defence (as you are perfectly entitled to do) you don't want to set yourself up for another offence..

https://www.gov.uk/blackouts-and-driving
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Fredd
post Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 11:43
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 10:07) *
I don’t see you have any sort of a defence to the MOT question unless you could have that family member provide a statement saying they told you it had passed the MOT (such that a special reasons not to endorse plea may have some legs)

No MoT isn't an endorsable offence anyway.


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notmeatloaf
post Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 12:06
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If you genuinely cannot remember there are a number of explanations. Blacking out is one of them. Another is that your memory was affected by schemas - basically in psychology if you do something that is so out of character your brain cannot reconcile it to your experiences to date it has the tendency just to block it entirely.

E.g. your brain considers you a good driver who does not pull out on a roundabout > you pull out in front of someone at a roundabout without good reason > your brain just fails to process it at all.

Whether it was a black out of course depends on your subsequent conversation with your GP. None of us can give you a medical opinion, although as has been said if you haven't seen your GP about it and have continued driving you could have awkward questions to answer.

If it wasn't a blackout that begs the question why didn't you stop. Is 50mph a sensible approach speed even if you didn't see the police car, e.g. it is a very wide roundabout? If it is, is it possible you missed the car through inattentiveness, or could an effect like "constant bearing, decreasing range" have played a part (A-pillar blocking the police car), which would reduce your culpability greatly.

All these things are important because due care and attention sentencing has significant variation. Unless you have a defence, like a blackout, and are found guilty you caused a fair amount of damage/harm then you are likely to be in Category 1 (7-9 points OR ban) if you are found to have greater culpability, or Category 2 (5-6 points) if you are found to have lower culpability. Obviously 9 points would be a six month ban under totting rules. So you need to consider this really carefully as "I can't remember what happened, no I haven't seen a doctor about it" will not impress the court.

This post has been edited by notmeatloaf: Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 12:07
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Fine76
post Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 13:48
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Thank You notmeatloaf.

I have been to the GP but not for black out , I was at the A&E the second day of the accident and a few test was done and it was confirm I don't have any medical nneds apart from spained ankle.

I have not been driving since the accident .

please I don't want a ban, what can I do/say to make the sentence manageable?

do you believe I need a lawyer or can I go myself ?
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The Rookie
post Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 14:08
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There is little you can do now to avoid a ban, a ban is not certain but the magistrates will pay heed to the sentancing guidelines and the severity of the collision and that makes a ban is very likely.

A solicitor will be of minimal help unless you have something meaningful for them to present, you really should have seen your GP and the fact you haven’t will devalue your efforts to convince the court you did genuinely black out.

On a personal level I’d be seeing the GP regardless, the delay will devalue your position if you use that in court by itself but if the GP or a specialist does find something you would have that, but NHS speed means it’s unlikley you’ll see a specialist in time.


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Dwaynedouglas
post Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 14:17
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QUOTE (Fine76 @ Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 13:48) *
I have been to the GP but not for black out , I was at the A&E the second day of the accident and a few test was done and it was confirm I don't have any medical nneds apart from spained ankle.


Completely aside from any advice on the incident, blackouts are not normal - you should get this checked out.

Is there any reason why you haven't had this checked out?



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I'm not a lawyer or legally trained, my opinion is based on my experience - follow at your own risk.
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notmeatloaf
post Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 14:33
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In addition to The Rookies advice, if you can't remember anything about the accident you have to focus on the piece you do know, that you approached the roundabout at 50mph.

Is that a reasonable speed to approach that roundabout at?

Was traffic light enough that you could have joined but didn't see one vehicle, or was it a total misjudgement?

I think the problem you may have is that people who do black out seldom manage to join roundabouts at all, because you tend to need to turn rather than enter at a right angle. Especially one on a 50mph road. 4 seconds at 50mph is almost 90 metres during which you had no control. Also did you mention your blackout to police at the time? How did you get home after the accident?

IMO your hope of avoiding a ban is to try and convince the bench you somehow had lower culpability with the facts you know - hence why thinking very carefully about whatever details you do know and looking at things like CBDR to paint a picture of it being a minor mistake with major consequences. As part of that you need to decide whether to accept the statements given, or cross examine them if it doesn't fit with your explanation of what happened. It will likely be an uphill battle.
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nigelbb
post Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 16:08
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Using the defence of a blackout at the wheel in the hope of avoiding a ban is a dangerous strategy. If you are genuinely having blackouts then you are obliged to inform the DVLA who will investigate & may revoke your licence.


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British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice(Appendix C contains Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 ) & can be found here http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Code-of-Pr...ance-monitoring
DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...ing-charges.pdf
Damning OFT advice on levels of parking charges that was ignored by the BPA Ltd Reference Request Number: IAT/FOIA/135010 – 12 October 2012
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andy_foster
post Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 20:36
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QUOTE (Fredd @ Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 11:43) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 10:07) *
I don’t see you have any sort of a defence to the MOT question unless you could have that family member provide a statement saying they told you it had passed the MOT (such that a special reasons not to endorse plea may have some legs)

No MoT isn't an endorsable offence anyway.


Do try to keep up. Simon is clearly fully aware that no MOT is a non-endorseable offence - he even noted it in the post you selectively quoted. It's just that in his own little world "special reasons not to endorse" has nothing to do with points or whether or not an offence is endorseable.

QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 10:07) *
I don’t see you have any sort of a defence to the MOT question unless you could have that family member provide a statement saying they told you it had passed the MOT (such that a special reasons not to endorse plea may have some legs), even that would be questionable as they would be unable to attend court for a cross exam, but it’s a small fine, no points, only.




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Fredd
post Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 21:23
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QUOTE (andy_foster @ Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 20:36) *
Do try to keep up. Simon is clearly fully aware that no MOT is a non-endorseable offence - he even noted it in the post you selectively quoted. It's just that in his own little world "special reasons not to endorse" has nothing to do with points or whether or not an offence is endorseable.

My apologies; in my simple world I don't normally expect the last part of a sentence to be in contradiction to the first. It seems that in some cases I must try harder. wink.gif


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bearclaw
post Thu, 8 Mar 2018 - 10:29
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QUOTE (nigelbb @ Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 16:08) *
Using the defence of a blackout at the wheel in the hope of avoiding a ban is a dangerous strategy. If you are genuinely having blackouts then you are obliged to inform the DVLA who will investigate & may revoke your licence.


Six months off driving basically... (unexplained syncope without prodromal section)

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/neurological-di...tered-awareness

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The Rookie
post Thu, 8 Mar 2018 - 12:46
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QUOTE (Fredd @ Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 22:23) *
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 20:36) *
Do try to keep up. Simon is clearly fully aware that no MOT is a non-endorseable offence - he even noted it in the post you selectively quoted. It's just that in his own little world "special reasons not to endorse" has nothing to do with points or whether or not an offence is endorseable.

My apologies; in my simple world I don't normally expect the last part of a sentence to be in contradiction to the first. It seems that in some cases I must try harder. wink.gif

While perhaps SRNTE is confusing here, its also almost always associated with no fine as well......


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southpaw82
post Thu, 8 Mar 2018 - 13:08
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 8 Mar 2018 - 12:46) *
While perhaps SRNTE is confusing here, its also almost always associated with no fine as well......

By “confusing” do you mean “wrong”? If you meant no fine then you should have said so. A usual expression would be a discharge, conditional or otherwise.


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The Rookie
post Thu, 8 Mar 2018 - 15:14
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Sorry for the wrong expression, but yes that is what I meant.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Rookies 1-0 Warwick
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Fine76
post Thu, 8 Mar 2018 - 15:15
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Thank you all for your responses, maybe I should say momentary lapse in concentration instead black out. if I use momentary lapse in concentration, do you think I have a case for leniency?

please what is SRNTE?
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bearclaw
post Thu, 8 Mar 2018 - 15:27
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SRNTE special reasons not to endorse

If you claim a momentary lapse in concentration I dont think they would see that at all in a favourable light - you are meant to concentrate on your driving.. If you have a medical reason for your blackout and can prove that you didnt know it would occur and that it did occur then that is a defence - taking your eyes off the ball whilst driving a tonne and a half of metal with your daughter in is never going to go down well...
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The Rookie
post Thu, 8 Mar 2018 - 15:46
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QUOTE (Fine76 @ Thu, 8 Mar 2018 - 16:15) *
Thank you all for your responses, maybe I should say momentary lapse in concentration instead black out. if I use momentary lapse in concentration, do you think I have a case for leniency?

No....a momentary lapse is exactly what is the offence committed, better to accept full responsibility although you can state you do not reacll the incident at all and cannot explain how it happened if asked, its a reasonably common scenario

QUOTE (Fine76 @ Thu, 8 Mar 2018 - 16:15) *
please what is SRNTE?

Special Reasons Not To Endorse, as noted above it was the wrong line to take.


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