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Speeding on lane where speed fluctuates
dan79
post Tue, 6 Mar 2018 - 23:45
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Was apparently driving 39 in a 30, I remember seeing the van and thinking im ok as not that fast, plus the speed limit had been variable I beleive, am I bang to rights or can I appeal anything?

Thanks in advance













This post has been edited by dan79: Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 10:18
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post Tue, 6 Mar 2018 - 23:45
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henrik777
post Thu, 8 Mar 2018 - 17:11
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Thu, 8 Mar 2018 - 16:57) *
QUOTE (henrik777 @ Thu, 8 Mar 2018 - 16:28) *
Was your normal post stopped due to the beast from the East ? Is the V5 in your name & address ?


OP hasn't suggested the NIP arrived late.



QUOTE
When did the form arrive ?


rolleyes.gif
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dan79
post Sat, 10 Mar 2018 - 10:01
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 19:02) *
QUOTE (dan79 @ Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 18:35) *
Ive just gone all along that road on google maps (I was driving east to west) from what I can see all the signage is 40mph on the road and with signs , how often is maps updated, and is it possible to find out how often the speed is altered on roads.

Thanks again

Google Streetview is from 2012 there. The 40mph was meant to be changed to 30mph in 2015.

http://somerset.gov.uk/EasysiteWeb/getreso...type=Attachment

You would need to drive the actual road now to see if they correctly signed it. Because there were/are no street lights it would normally need terminal signs (on entry) and also regularly spaced repeaters.



Is there no other way of checking? Can no one get hold of documents similar to yours above?

QUOTE (Logician @ Thu, 8 Mar 2018 - 16:54) *
QUOTE (dan79 @ Thu, 8 Mar 2018 - 15:30) *
Is there a way of contacting the council in anyway ? Does this kind of thing happen often. I'm just trying to decide of it's worth me driving there to check. I don't believe 4he police would lie. But how frequent are these mistakes made ? Regards


On odd occasions the limit is found not to be properly authorised (I got a fixed penalty refunded on that basis) or not properly signed, but this is not common. The only way to check is to go there. A mistake about the exact location of the offence would have to be a significant difference to give you a defence, if it is say just the difference between where the van was parked and where you were when they caught you it is not going to help you.


When does the 28 days run out will it be the 21st March or from date of alleged offence? Im not sure I can get to the location before then.
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mdann52
post Sat, 10 Mar 2018 - 10:02
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QUOTE (dan79 @ Sat, 10 Mar 2018 - 09:59) *
Is there no other way of checking? Can no one get hold of documents similar to yours above?


We've given you the document saying the work needed to be done. How else can it be checked if it was done other than driving the actual road to check?

Have you returned the form and named the driver yet?
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mdann52
post Sat, 10 Mar 2018 - 10:02
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*Duplicate post removed*

This post has been edited by mdann52: Sat, 10 Mar 2018 - 10:03
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dan79
post Sat, 10 Mar 2018 - 10:05
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QUOTE (henrik777 @ Thu, 8 Mar 2018 - 16:28) *
When did the form arrive ? Was your normal post stopped due to the beast from the East ? Is the V5 in your name & address ?


The name and address is correct on the letters above. I recieved the letter end of last week how could I possibly prove when it was received.

I had no idea there was a 14 day cut off
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notmeatloaf
post Sat, 10 Mar 2018 - 10:52
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QUOTE (dan79 @ Thu, 8 Mar 2018 - 15:30) *
Is there a way of contacting the council in anyway ? Does this kind of thing happen often. I'm just trying to decide of it's worth me driving there to check. I don't believe 4he police would lie. But how frequent are these mistakes made ?

Regards

Signage can be defective but obviously it is on a case by case basis, a sign next to a thick hedgerow is more likely to be difficult to see than a brand new one on a grass verge.

The guidance around signage has changed recently so that rather than prescriptive rules the signage needs to convey "adequate guidance" of the limit. If you do go back try to see it from an objective basis and take plenty of photos if you think it is inadequate. You need to do this as soon as possible because of course every day that passes either issues may be repaired, or there will be doubt as to whether a defect was still there when you passed.

As for the limit itself you can contact the council asking for the Traffic Regulation Order which would be needed to reduce the limit. They will normally email it to you (it is a public document) and you can check it correctly identifies the limit, very occasionally there are mistakes in road names etc.

With the above though if the limit was introduced three years ago likely someone else has tried the above. But worth a try.

This post has been edited by notmeatloaf: Sat, 10 Mar 2018 - 10:53
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henrik777
post Mon, 12 Mar 2018 - 20:48
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QUOTE (dan79 @ Sat, 10 Mar 2018 - 10:05) *
QUOTE (henrik777 @ Thu, 8 Mar 2018 - 16:28) *
When did the form arrive ? Was your normal post stopped due to the beast from the East ? Is the V5 in your name & address ?


The name and address is correct on the letters above. I recieved the letter end of last week how could I possibly prove when it was received.

I had no idea there was a 14 day cut off


There could be a date on it and/or the envelope and it'd be presumed to arrive on the 2nd business day after posting.

You could say when you received it, and how. Anyone who gave it to you could give evidence to same. The postie may recall posting it, the Royal Mail could give you evidence of any depot closures due to snow etc.

That's a few examples of how, but whether any/all is enough to satisfy a court will differ from judge to judge.

It would only matter if it was delivered by the postie too late.
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dan79
post Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 22:51
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Just an update I haven't sent the letter off yet as im waiting to hear back from the council on the speed limit. Unfortunately where I now live is miles from the area. So that is only way I can possibly check, if not I may have a family member might be able to check for me. I guess I have to wait and see what they say. Do I have to send the letter back within 28 days if I want the course or is it possible to do online at all. What is the last possible day I can post it within the reqiured time 19th?
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peterguk
post Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 22:54
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QUOTE (dan79 @ Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 22:51) *
Just an update I haven't sent the letter off yet as im waiting to hear back from the council on the speed limit. Unfortunately where I now live is miles from the area. So that is only way I can possibly check, if not I may have a family member might be able to check for me. I guess I have to wait and see what they say. Do I have to send the letter back within 28 days if I want the course or is it possible to do online at all. What is the last possible day I can post it within the reqiured time 19th?


You need to name the driver (yourself) within 28 days of receipt of the S.172 regardless of what arrives or does not arrive, otherwise you commit a separate criminal offence.


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andy_foster
post Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 23:33
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It is 28 days beginning with the date of service. If the notice was posted on 22/02/2018 it would have been deemed to have been served on 26/02/2018 (2nd working day after posting). 28 days beginning with the date of service would expire on 25/03/2018 (which is a Sunday), so the response would need to be delivered by 23/03/2018. It would need to be posted in time for it to be delivered by then.


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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 14 Mar 2018 - 09:03
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I thought where the deadline was on a weekend it rolled forward to the MOnday?
Ive seen that for (civil) court documents, not sure if it applies here.
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The Rookie
post Wed, 14 Mar 2018 - 09:29
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Simply put, no, however a driver nomination arriving a day (or even two) late is unlikley to be an issue but the law is as Andy has stated it.


--------------------
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cp8759
post Wed, 14 Mar 2018 - 15:35
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 14 Mar 2018 - 09:29) *
Simply put, no, however a driver nomination arriving a day (or even two) late is unlikley to be an issue but the law is as Andy has stated it.

I was under the distinct impression that, even for a criminal case document, the date of service is the following working day if the deadline date is a non-business day.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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666
post Wed, 14 Mar 2018 - 15:58
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QUOTE (andy_foster @ Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 23:33) *
It is 28 days beginning with the date of service. If the notice was posted on 22/02/2018 it would have been deemed to have been served on 26/02/2018 (2nd working day after posting). 28 days beginning with the date of service would expire on 25/03/2018 (which is a Sunday), so the response would need to be delivered by 23/03/2018. It would need to be posted in time for it to be delivered by then.


Saturday is a working day for Royal Mail, so delivery on 24th should be ok.
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The Rookie
post Wed, 14 Mar 2018 - 17:30
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The interpretation act doesn’t consider a Saturday and working day.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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cp8759
post Wed, 14 Mar 2018 - 17:46
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 14 Mar 2018 - 17:30) *
The interpretation act doesn’t consider a Saturday and working day.

Stickily speaking the relevant definition of a working day is found under CrimPR 2.2 (http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/criminal/docs/2015/crim-proc-rules-2015-part-02.pdf):

‘business day’ means any day except Saturday, Sunday, Christmas Day, Boxing Day, Good
Friday, Easter Monday or a bank holiday;


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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666
post Wed, 14 Mar 2018 - 18:20
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 14 Mar 2018 - 17:30) *
The interpretation act doesn’t consider a Saturday and working day.


But the relevant section (7) doesn't refer to working days, just to "the ordinary course of post". That, according to the Royal Mail, specifically includes Saturdays.
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cp8759
post Wed, 14 Mar 2018 - 18:41
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QUOTE (666 @ Wed, 14 Mar 2018 - 18:20) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 14 Mar 2018 - 17:30) *
The interpretation act doesn’t consider a Saturday and working day.


But the relevant section (7) doesn't refer to working days, just to "the ordinary course of post". That, according to the Royal Mail, specifically includes Saturdays.

CrimPR 4.11 (http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/criminal/docs/2015/crim-proc-rules-2015-part-04.pdf) defines what "the ordinary course of post" means as follows:

"(2) Unless something different is shown, a document served on a person by any other method is
served—
...
(b) in the case of a document sent by first class post or by the equivalent of first class post, on
the second business day after the day on which it was posted or despatched;
"


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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666
post Wed, 14 Mar 2018 - 19:04
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 14 Mar 2018 - 18:41) *
QUOTE (666 @ Wed, 14 Mar 2018 - 18:20) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 14 Mar 2018 - 17:30) *
The interpretation act doesn’t consider a Saturday and working day.


But the relevant section (7) doesn't refer to working days, just to "the ordinary course of post". That, according to the Royal Mail, specifically includes Saturdays.

CrimPR 4.11 (http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/criminal/docs/2015/crim-proc-rules-2015-part-04.pdf) defines what "the ordinary course of post" means as follows:

"(2) Unless something different is shown, a document served on a person by any other method is
served—
...
(b) in the case of a document sent by first class post or by the equivalent of first class post, on
the second business day after the day on which it was posted or despatched;
"


Doesn't Royal Mail's definition come under the heading of "Unless something different is shown"?


This post has been edited by 666: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 - 19:07
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cp8759
post Wed, 14 Mar 2018 - 19:22
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QUOTE (666 @ Wed, 14 Mar 2018 - 19:04) *
Doesn't Royal Mail's definition come under the heading of "Unless something different is shown"?

No, "Unless something different is shown" would have to be admissible evidence of receipt from a witness or admissible real evidence.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 - 19:22


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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