PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Dates different
snowdragon
post Sat, 3 Mar 2018 - 18:47
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10
Joined: 3 Mar 2018
Member No.: 96,844



Evening all,

I received a NIP/S172 form for speeding on X date. I completed the form and sent it back to the police. I was slightly confused as the car I didn't think I was there at the time, nor the speed alleged - and CCTV backs this up from my address. I made a phone call to the police and was told the offence wouldn't be discussed, and should I wish to do so a Court hearing would be the correct place to discuss my concerns. I noted the concerns on the S172 form within the comments box.

I heard nothing for a few months then received a summons.

However, the offence date on the summons charge sheet contains a completely different date to the NIP/S172 notice. The statement attached also shows a different date. The dates are not one or two days out, but nearly 4 weeks.

The vehicle has a number of people insured to drive it. The registered keeper, me, received no further NIPs/S172 notices.

It seems I am charged on the basis of the original response to X date, and been charged for an offence on Y date. I responded naming a driver for X date, not Y date - and of course I wasn't to know they wanted a driver for Y date.

Any thoughts before I respond to the summons?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 19)
Advertisement
post Sat, 3 Mar 2018 - 18:47
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
mdann52
post Sat, 3 Mar 2018 - 19:02
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 176
Joined: 19 Aug 2016
Member No.: 86,499



Have they charged you with speeding, or failure to provide details?

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Redivi
post Sat, 3 Mar 2018 - 19:11
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 2,302
Joined: 31 Jan 2018
Member No.: 96,238



It's not clear from your account if you're referring to two speeding events four weeks apart or an S172 offence following the original event

The S172 offence for the original NIP was committed 28 days after you received it because you had back-tracked on the identification of the driver

This post has been edited by Redivi: Sat, 3 Mar 2018 - 19:13
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Sat, 3 Mar 2018 - 19:38
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 29,444
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: With Mickey
Member No.: 49,223



What exactly did you say when returning the nomination?

Was the driver unequivocally named (You?) and signed?

What charges are on the summons?

What does the CCTV back up? (Are you saying the car wasn't there or you?)

As already noted a potential s172 offence for failing to furnish driver details occurs 28 days after the request is made.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Sat, 3 Mar 2018 - 19:41


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
snowdragon
post Sat, 3 Mar 2018 - 20:39
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10
Joined: 3 Mar 2018
Member No.: 96,844



QUOTE (Jlc @ Sat, 3 Mar 2018 - 19:38) *
What exactly did you say when returning the nomination?

Was the driver unequivocally named (You?) and signed?

What charges are on the summons?

What does the CCTV back up? (Are you saying the car wasn't there or you?)

As already noted a potential s172 offence for failing to furnish driver details occurs 28 days after the request is made.


Apologies, the driver was named as me as I did use the road going home on the original date stated - as it is local - however, I dispute the time. CCTV from my house shows at the alleged offence time that my car was at home. On the date stated on the NIP/S172, I only had access to the car.

The charge is for speeding, NOT failing to ID the driver.

On receiving the summons, the date is 4 weeks later - although the time remains the same. There has been no additional letters asking for the driver's identity on the charged offence date. I believe that the offence is one, rather than two, and the date completed incorrectly on the original NIP/S172. These haven't been sent by the Ticket Office, but a individual police officer.

This post has been edited by snowdragon: Sat, 3 Mar 2018 - 20:40
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Sat, 3 Mar 2018 - 21:06
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 29,444
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: With Mickey
Member No.: 49,223



What sort of difference in time are we talking here? Minutes/hours?

What's the alleged speed/limit?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Redivi
post Sat, 3 Mar 2018 - 21:15
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 2,302
Joined: 31 Jan 2018
Member No.: 96,238



Could you confirm that I've understood correctly ?

1 You received a NIP/S172 for a speeding offence on Date X
2 You returned the form and identified yourself as driver because you were driving at the location but not at the exact time stated and expressed your doubts
3 You checked records and CCTV later and discovered the car was indeed not there at the time stated - how wrong is the time and how far away were you ?
4 You contacted the police with your doubts
5 You have now received a summons for a speeding offence on Date Y which happens to be four weeks after Date X
6 You have not been charged with a S172 offence
7 You have never received a NIP/S172 for a speeding offence on Date Y
8 You have not been charged with a speeding offence on Date X

The police would have assumed your phone call to mean that you wouldn't accept a fixed penalty if offered leaving court as the only option

If the above statements are correct, a possible explanation is that they confused the dates of the speeding and an S172 offence that they probably intended to charge

The error in time isn't a defence if you haven't been misled about the incident
You clearly knew what it referred to when you sent your reply

I'm not convinced that the error of the date can be so easily dismissed
Does the charge have a reference number that ties it to the original NIP ?

If it doesn't, the OP can argue that he's never received a NIP for Date Y and there is no evidence that he was the driver on that date
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
snowdragon
post Sat, 3 Mar 2018 - 21:20
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10
Joined: 3 Mar 2018
Member No.: 96,844



QUOTE (Jlc @ Sat, 3 Mar 2018 - 21:06) *
What sort of difference in time are we talking here? Minutes/hours?

What's the alleged speed/limit?


6 hours difference.

Offence is 77 in a 50.

I am conscious that a signed statement must be true from my side, so I made the call, and then put my concerns down in the notes section stating that I had evidence to show my vehicle was not at the location at the alleged time.

Could it have been 4 weeks later? Maybe, but as said multiple people are insured, but no request has been received in respect of that date.

QUOTE (Redivi @ Sat, 3 Mar 2018 - 21:15) *
Could you confirm that I've understood correctly ?

1 You received a NIP/S172 for a speeding offence on Date X
2 You returned the form and identified yourself as driver because you were driving at the location but not at the exact time stated and expressed your doubts
3 You checked records and CCTV later and discovered the car was indeed not there at the time stated - how wrong is the time and how far away were you ?
4 You contacted the police with your doubts
5 You have now received a summons for a speeding offence on Date Y which happens to be four weeks after Date X
6 You have not been charged with a S172 offence
7 You have never received a NIP/S172 for a speeding offence on Date Y
8 You have not been charged with a speeding offence on Date X

The police would have assumed your phone call to mean that you wouldn't accept a fixed penalty if offered leaving court as the only option

If the above statements are correct, a possible explanation is that they confused the dates of the speeding and an S172 offence that they probably intended to charge

The error in time isn't a defence if you haven't been misled about the incident
You clearly knew what it referred to when you sent your reply

I'm not convinced that the error of the date can be so easily dismissed
Does the charge have a reference number that ties it to the original NIP ?

If it doesn't, the OP can argue that he's never received a NIP for Date Y and there is no evidence that he was the driver on that date


Yes - the evidence with the Summons includes an exhibit of the original NIP/S172 notice which the police say they sent and refer to in the statement. This carries date X. No evidence within the statement shows how the police identified the driver on date Y.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kickaha
post Sat, 3 Mar 2018 - 22:07
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 2,357
Joined: 10 Jun 2010
Member No.: 38,126



When did you receive the first NIP in relation to the dates of the alleged offence ( the date given on the NIP and the court summons)?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
snowdragon
post Sat, 3 Mar 2018 - 22:29
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10
Joined: 3 Mar 2018
Member No.: 96,844



QUOTE (Kickaha @ Sat, 3 Mar 2018 - 22:07) *
When did you receive the first NIP in relation to the dates of the alleged offence ( the date given on the NIP and the court summons)?


3 days after date of the offence (Date Y) on the summons. Of course at the time of receiving I was none the wiser.

I did think about the 14 day rule, however, the keeper changed from my father to me just after the offence date on the original NIP (Date X)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Sun, 4 Mar 2018 - 08:44
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 29,444
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: With Mickey
Member No.: 49,223



You say this was a 'manually' processed NIP by a PC?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
snowdragon
post Sun, 4 Mar 2018 - 09:14
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10
Joined: 3 Mar 2018
Member No.: 96,844



QUOTE (Jlc @ Sun, 4 Mar 2018 - 08:44) *
You say this was a 'manually' processed NIP by a PC?


Correct. The NIP/S172 are completed by a PC with the statement also written by them. Their department is not the Ticket Office.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Sun, 4 Mar 2018 - 10:06
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 40,167
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



It wouldn’t be.

What does the statement say was the means of capturing the offence?

You have two thrusts to your defence, no NIP and no driver ID, should be fairly simple it looks.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
snowdragon
post Sun, 4 Mar 2018 - 10:20
Post #14


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10
Joined: 3 Mar 2018
Member No.: 96,844



QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 4 Mar 2018 - 10:06) *
It wouldn’t be.

What does the statement say was the means of capturing the offence?

You have two thrusts to your defence, no NIP and no driver ID, should be fairly simple it looks.


Offence was captured during an average speed check with the PCs unmarked police vehicle pacing behind. Notes in the statement show the PC was unable to stop me at the time due to an immediate grade call coming in. The statement goes on to explain how they sent a NIP/S172 themselves, received a reply and exhibited it themselves. Only involvement with the Ticket Office was submitting the file for summons. NIP/S172 all from the PC. No mention of calls or the comments I said around my "concerns".

This post has been edited by snowdragon: Sun, 4 Mar 2018 - 10:20
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Sun, 4 Mar 2018 - 11:36
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 40,167
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



So you have a solid defence on either one of those two bases, once the CPS realise they’ll probably drop it like a hot tuber.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
snowdragon
post Sun, 4 Mar 2018 - 12:06
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10
Joined: 3 Mar 2018
Member No.: 96,844



QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 4 Mar 2018 - 11:36) *
So you have a solid defence on either one of those two bases, once the CPS realise they’ll probably drop it like a hot tuber.


Thanks. I'll respond as such on the summons but as it goes to the Court, i'll follow up separately with the CPS.

Surprised it got through as I thought all files were reviewed! I'll give the CPS a ring once I have a new date and they've hopefully got the file.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Sun, 4 Mar 2018 - 12:47
Post #17


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 40,167
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



The CPS won’t get the file until your not guilty plea is entered into the system after the first hearing, they have no need to see them until after that as the Police are the only ones involved so far.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
snowdragon
post Sun, 4 Mar 2018 - 12:51
Post #18


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10
Joined: 3 Mar 2018
Member No.: 96,844



QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 4 Mar 2018 - 12:47) *
The CPS won’t get the file until your not guilty plea is entered into the system after the first hearing, they have no need to see them until after that as the Police are the only ones involved so far.


No problem. I'll respond NG and give the police contact a ring as listed on the summons, then see what the CPS say.

I'll keep you updated!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
andy_foster
post Sun, 4 Mar 2018 - 14:23
Post #19


Member
Group Icon

Group: Life Member
Posts: 20,395
Joined: 9 Sep 2004
From: Reading
Member No.: 1,624



Did you actually receive a summons? If so, where did the alleged offence occur?


--------------------
Andy

If you're going to try to contradict me, please at least try to get your facts straight.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Sun, 4 Mar 2018 - 14:27
Post #20


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 40,167
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



QUOTE (snowdragon @ Sat, 3 Mar 2018 - 19:47) *
I heard nothing for a few months then received a summons.

However, the offence date on the summons charge sheet contains a completely different date to the NIP/S172 notice. The statement attached also shows a different date. The dates are not one or two days out, but nearly 4 weeks.

Seems likely he has a summons?


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Tuesday, 11th December 2018 - 14:42
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.