PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

NIP M62 WB J27 - 28, 73 in a "60" Roads empty....
Out of Focus
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 18:45
Post #1


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9
Joined: 2 Mar 2018
Member No.: 96,835



Hi,

Just wanting some advice. This is my first speeding fine and I wanted to clarify a few things.

I was caught doing 73mph on a motorway. For some unknown reason, the people in the control room (I assume?) decided that the near empty M62 needed to have a reduced speed. Ok.... However, half of the gantry speed signals did not work for the fast lane and the road was clear from Glasshoughton until I came off at the M66 junction. Surely this is stretching it from WYP/Camera operators? I was 3mph over the actual limit, driving safely and with full attention on a perfectly clear motorway

I have attached images, though they are very unclear (probably intentional as well...). Its probably my car, my car is black and I can barely see anything so I will go with it being mine.

Surely the operators have to be able to justify the reduced limit? If not, then why? A motorway is designated as 70mph and unless there is a hazard (there were none at the time). Otherwise isnt this just needlessly slowing traffic?

Also, what points/fine combo can I expect? Is it possible to prove the gantry limit signs were unreliable as they were not always present?

Don't take this as me trying to get out of it, if its low points/fine then its hardly the end of the world but if I could challenge it over some questionable tactics being deployed here, then I wouldn't be against it.

Also, probably not an issue but they have addressed me as my shorthand name, not my full name. Imagine Matt. over Mathew, or Dave, over David. I would expect documentation like this should carry the full title. This is however how my V5 document names me so I suspect not an issue?

This reminds me why I avoid the M62 like the plague. Awful road. Smart motorways are a joke and this is one of the very worst!

Thanks for any advice.

Also, due to a medical issue I finished work today and have not yet claimed ESA for the short time between finding a less physical job.....

So could I accept the 100% of my earnings.... seeing as they are currently £0 per week? Or do you think they might catch onto that one? wink.gif
Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached Image
 
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
2 Pages V  < 1 2  
Start new topic
Replies (20 - 32)
Advertisement
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 18:45
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
Jlc
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:53
Post #21


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 28,845
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: With Mickey
Member No.: 49,223



QUOTE (Out of Focus @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:48) *
The signs weren't all displayed, some weren't working at all. The ones ahead of me in the image attached were all working, but the ones prior to that may not have been.

The HADECS3 auxiliary camera will take a shot of the actual displayed speed signs with your car passing them. There can be no argument really.

Your attachment isn't clear enough to see but here's a better example.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Out of Focus
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 20:00
Post #22


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9
Joined: 2 Mar 2018
Member No.: 96,835



QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:53) *
QUOTE (Out of Focus @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:48) *
The signs weren't all displayed, some weren't working at all. The ones ahead of me in the image attached were all working, but the ones prior to that may not have been.

The HADECS3 auxiliary camera will take a shot of the actual displayed speed signs with your car passing them. There can be no argument really.

Your attachment isn't clear enough to see but here's a better example.


Ahh, I didnt realise the top image was the one before. Now it makes sense. For some reason, on neither chrome or firefox, I couldnt enlarge the image. It looks like someone was using an old VGA camera for the pictures tbh, though they will have better quality images available I suspect.

I shall get the form sent off and get a speed awareness course hopefully. Though I would like to know what hazard justified the 60 limit. I dont think its right to accept that they might have been, they should specify what it was and why the limit was in place. But thats just my opinion and unlikely to change anything.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 20:02
Post #23


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 28,845
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: With Mickey
Member No.: 49,223



QUOTE (Out of Focus @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:53) *
Nah, I read something about a whole host of new laws for drivers coming, some of which are related to Smart Motorways.

Probably this.

These changes are often reported as new 'laws' - take last year's change in sentencing guidelines; the press had a field day with these new 'laws' that seem to confuse...

QUOTE (Out of Focus @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 20:00) *
Though I would like to know what hazard justified the 60 limit. I dont think its right to accept that they might have been, they should specify what it was and why the limit was in place. But thats just my opinion and unlikely to change anything.

FWIW I empathize but perhaps someone is having a bit of 'lark' to increase revenues... wink.gif (Without descending into financials of the course/fixed penalty situation)

This post has been edited by Jlc: Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 20:02


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
peterguk
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 20:04
Post #24


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 12,786
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Member No.: 14,720



QUOTE (Out of Focus @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 20:00) *
Though I would like to know what hazard justified the 60 limit.


TBH i can't see it matters. Whatever the reason doesn't change the fact the limit has to be obeyed.


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Out of Focus
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 20:16
Post #25


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9
Joined: 2 Mar 2018
Member No.: 96,835



QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 20:02) *
QUOTE (Out of Focus @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:53) *
Nah, I read something about a whole host of new laws for drivers coming, some of which are related to Smart Motorways.

Probably this.

These changes are often reported as new 'laws' - take last year's change in sentencing guidelines; the press had a field day with these new 'laws' that seem to confuse...

QUOTE (Out of Focus @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 20:00) *
Though I would like to know what hazard justified the 60 limit. I dont think its right to accept that they might have been, they should specify what it was and why the limit was in place. But thats just my opinion and unlikely to change anything.

FWIW I empathize but perhaps someone is having a bit of 'lark' to increase revenues... wink.gif


I suspect so. Its usually because the public just accepts it because "it is so" that this stuff happens anyway. I drove for quite a while longer along the motorway and there was no sign of any issues but as stated, maybe there was something. I guess I will never know.

Maybe one day in the future, someone with more money and time will challenge this point and WYP will have egg on their face once again.

There should also be warning signs for Smart Motorways. "Welcome to hell"

QUOTE (peterguk @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 20:04) *
QUOTE (Out of Focus @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 20:00) *
Though I would like to know what hazard justified the 60 limit.


TBH i can't see it matters. Whatever the reason doesn't change the fact the limit has to be obeyed.


Thats fine. However, for me, I think they should be able to easily justify why the limit was in place. I expect they keep records of why, so it should be of no issue to them and would help clear up any queries.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-...-herts-34719997 - Things like this are why. And it wouldnt be the first time police forces or councils have done questionable things to raise money.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Fredd
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 20:25
Post #26


Webmaster
Group Icon

Group: Root Admin
Posts: 7,117
Joined: 30 Mar 2003
From: Wokingham, UK
Member No.: 2



If you've finished asking for help with your case, please take these other issues to the Flame Pit.


--------------------
Regards,
Fredd

__________________________________________________________________________
Pepipoo relies on you
to keep this site running!
Donate to Pepipoo now using your
Visa, Mastercard, debit card or PayPal account
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Out of Focus
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 20:28
Post #27


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9
Joined: 2 Mar 2018
Member No.: 96,835



QUOTE (Fredd @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 20:25) *
If you've finished asking for help with your case, please take these other issues to the Flame Pit.


Sorry.

Thanks for the advice guys. I will hopefully get the offer of a course and that will be that. Much appreciated.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Sun, 4 Mar 2018 - 18:28
Post #28


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 4,605
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (Out of Focus @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 20:16) *
I suspect so. Its usually because the public just accepts it because "it is so" that this stuff happens anyway. I drove for quite a while longer along the motorway and there was no sign of any issues but as stated, maybe there was something. I guess I will never know.

Actually if you want to know the reason why the speed limit was lowered, you can just ask Highways England, you can do this quire independently of the speeding issue.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Incandescent
post Sun, 4 Mar 2018 - 22:39
Post #29


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 12,116
Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Member No.: 54,455



QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 4 Mar 2018 - 18:28) *
QUOTE (Out of Focus @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 20:16) *
I suspect so. Its usually because the public just accepts it because "it is so" that this stuff happens anyway. I drove for quite a while longer along the motorway and there was no sign of any issues but as stated, maybe there was something. I guess I will never know.

Actually if you want to know the reason why the speed limit was lowered, you can just ask Highways England, you can do this quire independently of the speeding issue.

A few years ago I was batting happily along the M25 quite late at night on cruis at 70 mph or thereabouts with family in the car, there was some traffic but not a huge amount, all the VSL signs had been un-illuminated. I was suddenly confronted with a 40 limit. No lead down to this at all in the form of 60 > 50 > 40. However I managed to slow down sufficiently to not get flashed by the ubiquitous cash cameras. After this gantry there was then a sign "Fog Ahead". Except there was no fog at all, the night was completely clear, not even a hint of fog So I confronted Highways Agency (as then was) with this. After some delay, I was finally told that a fog sensor had failed and the system put the limit up without human intervention as a "safety measure". I have also suddenly been confronted with a 20 mph.Now this is really playing with people's lives. One day we will have a VSL-induced pile-up, it is only a matter of time.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Sun, 4 Mar 2018 - 22:41
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Sun, 4 Mar 2018 - 23:11
Post #30


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 4,605
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (Incandescent @ Sun, 4 Mar 2018 - 22:39) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 4 Mar 2018 - 18:28) *
QUOTE (Out of Focus @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 20:16) *
I suspect so. Its usually because the public just accepts it because "it is so" that this stuff happens anyway. I drove for quite a while longer along the motorway and there was no sign of any issues but as stated, maybe there was something. I guess I will never know.

Actually if you want to know the reason why the speed limit was lowered, you can just ask Highways England, you can do this quire independently of the speeding issue.

A few years ago I was batting happily along the M25 quite late at night on cruis at 70 mph or thereabouts with family in the car, there was some traffic but not a huge amount, all the VSL signs had been un-illuminated. I was suddenly confronted with a 40 limit. No lead down to this at all in the form of 60 > 50 > 40. However I managed to slow down sufficiently to not get flashed by the ubiquitous cash cameras. After this gantry there was then a sign "Fog Ahead". Except there was no fog at all, the night was completely clear, not even a hint of fog So I confronted Highways Agency (as then was) with this. After some delay, I was finally told that a fog sensor had failed and the system put the limit up without human intervention as a "safety measure". I have also suddenly been confronted with a 20 mph.Now this is really playing with people's lives. One day we will have a VSL-induced pile-up, it is only a matter of time.

Oh that's a real shame, it would have been a rare example of where you would have had a good chance of getting the speed limit quashed as Wednesbury unreasonable at JR ;-)

This post has been edited by cp8759: Sun, 4 Mar 2018 - 23:11


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
notmeatloaf
post Sun, 4 Mar 2018 - 23:18
Post #31


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,468
Joined: 4 Mar 2017
Member No.: 90,659



QUOTE (Incandescent @ Sun, 4 Mar 2018 - 22:39) *
A few years ago I was batting happily along the M25 quite late at night on cruis at 70 mph or thereabouts with family in the car, there was some traffic but not a huge amount, all the VSL signs had been un-illuminated. I was suddenly confronted with a 40 limit. No lead down to this at all in the form of 60 > 50 > 40. However I managed to slow down sufficiently to not get flashed by the ubiquitous cash cameras. After this gantry there was then a sign "Fog Ahead". Except there was no fog at all, the night was completely clear, not even a hint of fog So I confronted Highways Agency (as then was) with this. After some delay, I was finally told that a fog sensor had failed and the system put the limit up without human intervention as a "safety measure". I have also suddenly been confronted with a 20 mph.Now this is really playing with people's lives. One day we will have a VSL-induced pile-up, it is only a matter of time.

If you are driving so you can stop within the distance you can see than a sudden speed limit change should be no issue. Some drivers are happy to crack along with the assumption it's a motorway so nothing unexpected can happen. I have done enough miles on the motorway to know what all sorts of things more surprising than a illuminated limit on a gantry can occur, and I have never had an at fault accident as proof.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tartarus
post Mon, 5 Mar 2018 - 12:53
Post #32


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 304
Joined: 18 Mar 2015
Member No.: 76,324



QUOTE (Out of Focus @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:53) *
That's quite a funny read. The worst motorways in the UK are all smart motorways in my experience. They dont aid anything, only serve to cause issues and of course, raise money. But thats another discussion for another time and place.

More and more of them are going to go that way, so you're just going to have to get used to it... and the idea is to monitor and adjust the flow of traffic relevant to the conditions, there doesn't specifically have to be a hazard per se triggering the reduced speed limit. Something in itself that can clear up before you reach the point it had actually occurred at (see the classic concertina wave temp traffic jam phenomenon). I do query some of the speed limit alterations I've encountered on motorways, but some of them are genuinely accurate, you may never see the trigger.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Fredd
post Mon, 5 Mar 2018 - 13:37
Post #33


Webmaster
Group Icon

Group: Root Admin
Posts: 7,117
Joined: 30 Mar 2003
From: Wokingham, UK
Member No.: 2



Take it to the Flame Pit, people.


--------------------
Regards,
Fredd

__________________________________________________________________________
Pepipoo relies on you
to keep this site running!
Donate to Pepipoo now using your
Visa, Mastercard, debit card or PayPal account
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V  < 1 2
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Sunday, 23rd September 2018 - 03:34
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.