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NIP M62 WB J27 - 28, 73 in a "60" Roads empty....
Out of Focus
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 18:45
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Hi,

Just wanting some advice. This is my first speeding fine and I wanted to clarify a few things.

I was caught doing 73mph on a motorway. For some unknown reason, the people in the control room (I assume?) decided that the near empty M62 needed to have a reduced speed. Ok.... However, half of the gantry speed signals did not work for the fast lane and the road was clear from Glasshoughton until I came off at the M66 junction. Surely this is stretching it from WYP/Camera operators? I was 3mph over the actual limit, driving safely and with full attention on a perfectly clear motorway

I have attached images, though they are very unclear (probably intentional as well...). Its probably my car, my car is black and I can barely see anything so I will go with it being mine.

Surely the operators have to be able to justify the reduced limit? If not, then why? A motorway is designated as 70mph and unless there is a hazard (there were none at the time). Otherwise isnt this just needlessly slowing traffic?

Also, what points/fine combo can I expect? Is it possible to prove the gantry limit signs were unreliable as they were not always present?

Don't take this as me trying to get out of it, if its low points/fine then its hardly the end of the world but if I could challenge it over some questionable tactics being deployed here, then I wouldn't be against it.

Also, probably not an issue but they have addressed me as my shorthand name, not my full name. Imagine Matt. over Mathew, or Dave, over David. I would expect documentation like this should carry the full title. This is however how my V5 document names me so I suspect not an issue?

This reminds me why I avoid the M62 like the plague. Awful road. Smart motorways are a joke and this is one of the very worst!

Thanks for any advice.

Also, due to a medical issue I finished work today and have not yet claimed ESA for the short time between finding a less physical job.....

So could I accept the 100% of my earnings.... seeing as they are currently £0 per week? Or do you think they might catch onto that one? wink.gif
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post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 18:45
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The Rookie
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:02
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Most motorway limits are set automatically by traffic monitoring systems, otherwise they may be set for a number of reasons, some of which may not be apparent to motorists. They are set by the highways agency, nothing to do with the police at all.

The limit is required to be adequately conveyed, it’s clear from your description you knew what the speed limit was so it’s very likely to comply.

You would have a case if there was no reason at all for the limit to be lowered (though as you admit exceeding the maximum the limit could be that may not help) but it’s unlikley it was set for no reason at all.

You don’t say what the limit was set at?


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Jlc
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:04
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:02) *
You don’t say what the limit was set at?

Thread subtitle craftily hiding it - 60mph...


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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The Rookie
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:06
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In which case it would be foolish to pass u0 the almost inevitable course.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Council PCN's
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Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
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Jlc
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:07
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QUOTE (Out of Focus @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 18:45) *
Also, what points/fine combo can I expect? Is it possible to prove the gantry limit signs were unreliable as they were not always present?

A course offer or fixed penalty of 3 points £100.

The ping is from HADECS3 so they should have an auxiliary shot of the displayed limit for no argument.

QUOTE (Out of Focus @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 18:45) *
Also, probably not an issue but they have addressed me as my shorthand name, not my full name. Imagine Matt. over Mathew, or Dave, over David. I would expect documentation like this should carry the full title. This is however how my V5 document names me so I suspect not an issue?

If that's what the v5 has got then what else can you expect? Indeed, when you nominate the driver you can correct the 'error'.

QUOTE (Out of Focus @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 18:45) *
So could I accept the 100% of my earnings.... seeing as they are currently £0 per week? Or do you think they might catch onto that one? wink.gif

See above. Even at court there's no concept of £0 per week. (It's at least £120)

Not to mention court costs and surcharge - not that it will go to court unless you want it to.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:09


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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peterguk
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:11
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QUOTE (Out of Focus @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 18:45) *
and unless there is a hazard (there were none that i was aware at the time).


FTFY


Motorways can have reduced limits for dozens of reasons - and many may offer no visible evidence.


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Logician
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:11
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QUOTE
I was 3mph over the actual limit, driving safely and with full attention on a perfectly clear motorway


The actual limit was the limit that had been set, not what it would be if no lower limit was set.

QUOTE
Also, due to a medical issue I finished work today and have not yet claimed ESA for the short time between finding a less physical job.....

So could I accept the 100% of my earnings.... seeing as they are currently £0 per week? Or do you think they might catch onto that one?


Your relevant weekly income will be taken to be £120 if you have no income or are on benefits, but unless you were more than 25mph over the limit, the likely outcome is a fixed penalty of £100 + 3 points.

This post has been edited by Logician: Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:19


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Out of Focus
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:15
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:02) *
Most motorway limits are set automatically by traffic monitoring systems, otherwise they may be set for a number of reasons, some of which may not be apparent to motorists. They are set by the highways agency, nothing to do with the police at all.

The limit is required to be adequately conveyed, it’s clear from your description you knew what the speed limit was so it’s very likely to comply.

You would have a case if there was no reason at all for the limit to be lowered (though as you admit exceeding the maximum the limit could be that may not help) but it’s unlikley it was set for no reason at all.

You don’t say what the limit was set at?


It was 60, sorry. I thought I mentioned it.

The road was empty, which meant there was no justification for the reduced limit. I understand you are saying its automated, but there was barely a vehicle on the motorway. Half of the gantry signs were also out of operation.

And yes, I accept I was doing 3mph over the actual limit set by law, but I suspect I wouldnt have been done for that at all.



QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:06) *
In which case it would be foolish to pass u0 the almost inevitable course.


I will probably accept this if offered. Is it likely they will?

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thisisntme
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:17
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QUOTE (Out of Focus @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:13) *
And yes, I accept I was doing 3mph over the actual limit set by law, but I suspect I wouldnt have been done for that at all.


On a smart motorway, the actual limit set by law is the limit set on the signs or National Speed Limit. There was a 60mph set on the signs, so therefore that IS the ACTUAL speed limit.


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Out of Focus
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:20
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:11) *
QUOTE (Out of Focus @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 18:45) *
and unless there is a hazard (there were none that i was aware at the time).


FTFY


Motorways can have reduced limits for dozens of reasons - and many may offer no visible evidence.


Seems sketchy to me but I don't make the rules. Other motorways manage perfectly fine without these god awful systems in place.... while the M62 spends most of its time in gridlock or some other form of chaos.





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Jlc
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:20
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QUOTE (Out of Focus @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:15) *
I will probably accept this if offered. Is it likely they will?

One is usually offered up to +10%+9mph inclusive. So 75mph here.

The other condition is not attending on in the last 3 years based upon the date of offence.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Out of Focus
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:26
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QUOTE (thisisntme @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:17) *
QUOTE (Out of Focus @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:13) *
And yes, I accept I was doing 3mph over the actual limit set by law, but I suspect I wouldnt have been done for that at all.


On a smart motorway, the actual limit set by law is the limit set on the signs or National Speed Limit. There was a 60mph set on the signs, so therefore that IS the ACTUAL speed limit.


Out of interest, is there any documentation that supports this. the highway code or something?

The government for example makes no mention of different rules for smart motorways, which if this is the case, and I have no reason to doubt you, its why I came here, then they should really make this clear.

https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits

Sorry if I sound pedantic, just curious.





QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:20) *
QUOTE (Out of Focus @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:15) *
I will probably accept this if offered. Is it likely they will?

One is usually offered up to +10%+9mph inclusive. So 75mph here.

The other condition is not attending on in the last 3 years based upon the date of offence.


This is my first so hopefully this will be offered.

The lesson here is to go through Ottley, Ilkley and Skipton as I usually would. Much nicer drive too, except in Ilkley when the cyclists block everything off in their lycra ohmy.gif
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peterguk
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:26
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QUOTE (Out of Focus @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:24) *
is there any documentation that supports this. the highway code or something?


What documentation are you looking for that tells you the displayed speed limit must be obeyed?


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douglasb
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:26
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If you haven't done a speed awareness course in the last three years then the offer of a course is the most likely answer (they are available at up to limit + 10% +9mph so 75mph in a 60), They have to be taken within 4 months of the speeding so as long as that timescale fits it is the most likely result. If a course isn't offered then 3 points and £100.

As for "road empty so no justification", as others have said, you don't know whad had happened up ahead. Were there animals in the road which police/farmer had just cleared? I have no idea - but equally, you don't know what might have just been cleared ahead.
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Jlc
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:31
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:26) *
QUOTE (Out of Focus @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:24) *
is there any documentation that supports this. the highway code or something?

What documentation are you looking for that tells you the displayed speed limit must be obeyed?

Indeed, as long as the relevant order is in place and the signs are compliant/displayed then that's the limit.

However, I think the OP is more asking about the guidance/policy about how limits are set on Smart motorways etc. Yes, there are certain publications but generally one cannot formulate a defence from them as they are not 'law'.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:31


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Logician
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:40
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QUOTE (Out of Focus @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:26) *
QUOTE (thisisntme @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:17) *
QUOTE (Out of Focus @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:13) *
And yes, I accept I was doing 3mph over the actual limit set by law, but I suspect I wouldnt have been done for that at all.
On a smart motorway, the actual limit set by law is the limit set on the signs or National Speed Limit. There was a 60mph set on the signs, so therefore that IS the ACTUAL speed limit.
Out of interest, is there any documentation that supports this. the highway code or something? The government for example makes no mention of different rules for smart motorways, which if this is the case, and I have no reason to doubt you, its why I came here, then they should really make this clear. https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits Sorry if I sound pedantic, just curious.


Those are national speed limits that apply if no other limit is indicated, what you should be looking at is How to Drive on a Smart Motorway



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Out of Focus
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:48
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:31) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:26) *
QUOTE (Out of Focus @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:24) *
is there any documentation that supports this. the highway code or something?

What documentation are you looking for that tells you the displayed speed limit must be obeyed?

Indeed, as long as the relevant order is in place and the signs are compliant/displayed then that's the limit.

However, I think the OP is more asking about the guidance/policy about how limits are set on Smart motorways etc. Yes, there are certain publications but generally one cannot formulate a defence from them as they are not 'law'.


The signs weren't all displayed, some weren't working at all. The ones ahead of me in the image attached were all working, but the ones prior to that may not have been. I cant remember specifics tbh but more than once, the inside lane had no reduced speed limit displayed.

I'm just interested in seeing specifically written laws regarding Smart Motorways and variable speed limits. I expect they exist, but I couldn't find them in the obvious place, gov.uk. I believe there are laws coming though.
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Jlc
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:50
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QUOTE (Out of Focus @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:48) *
I believe there are laws coming though.

You're guessing now aren't you... wink.gif

Laws for speed enforcement are already long established - along with this specific order.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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NewJudge
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:51
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QUOTE (Out of Focus @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:26) *
Out of interest, is there any documentation that supports this. the highway code or something?


Highway code, rule 261:

On some motorways, mandatory motorway signals (which display the speed within a red ring) are used to vary the maximum speed limit to improve traffic flow. You MUST NOT exceed this speed limit.

Law RTRA sects 17, 86, 89 & sched 6
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Out of Focus
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:53
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QUOTE (Logician @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:40) *
QUOTE (Out of Focus @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:26) *
QUOTE (thisisntme @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:17) *
QUOTE (Out of Focus @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:13) *
And yes, I accept I was doing 3mph over the actual limit set by law, but I suspect I wouldnt have been done for that at all.
On a smart motorway, the actual limit set by law is the limit set on the signs or National Speed Limit. There was a 60mph set on the signs, so therefore that IS the ACTUAL speed limit.
Out of interest, is there any documentation that supports this. the highway code or something? The government for example makes no mention of different rules for smart motorways, which if this is the case, and I have no reason to doubt you, its why I came here, then they should really make this clear. https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits Sorry if I sound pedantic, just curious.


Those are national speed limits that apply if no other limit is indicated, what you should be looking at is How to Drive on a Smart Motorway


That's quite a funny read. The worst motorways in the UK are all smart motorways in my experience. They dont aid anything, only serve to cause issues and of course, raise money. But thats another discussion for another time and place.

Thanks for the link, anyway.

QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:50) *
QUOTE (Out of Focus @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 19:48) *
I believe there are laws coming though.

You're guessing now aren't you... wink.gif

Laws for speed enforcement are already long established - along with this specific order.


Nah, I read something about a whole host of new laws for drivers coming, some of which are related to Smart Motorways.

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