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Banned and wasn’t aware
Typan
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 20:55
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My daughters boyfriend is a private hire driver with a settle car not registered in his name. In October last year he must have been caught on camera dropping someone at Manchester Airport, he was doing 70 when it had been restricted to 50. In November he received a letter saying because he didn’t give the information of who was driving he had been given 6 points. He called up the court to ask what was it about as he hadn’t had a letter and was told to do a statutory declaration and was given a date. Just before the date to do this he received a summons on referral for this month to attend a court where the speeding had happened.

The court date was yesterday and he forgot about it and did not attend, he was convinced it was 16th and only realised after my daughter told him to check (got the letter 3 mthis ago, I know, no excuse)

As soon as he realised he called the court and was told he had been disqualified for 6mths, prior to this his licence was clean.

I am presuming they doubled the initial 3 points to 6 then 6 for not informing them. The thing is that the keeper of the car (taxi firm) must have provided driver details otherwise how would they have got his address. He is totally distraught as he has never had any dealings with the courts so he was totally naive to what was going on.

He has not only lost his licence but also his job if he doesn’t get this sorted, he really doesn’t know what to do , so I’m hoping someone can offer some advice.

Thanks
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post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 20:55
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henrik777
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 13:38
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Get a lawyer. Ask around locally for someone who deals with motoring stuff.

If someone shows the aptitude for dealing with this stuff i'd say save the cash. In this case, get a lawyer. His livelihood depends on it, or so it seems.
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NewJudge
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 21:16
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I've had a look through this thread now and I will reiterate what I said earlier. He needs to be sure about what he has been told.

If you think about it logically, if the court has suspended his ban until his appeal is heard, his best course of action would be to simply fail to appeal. Unless the court that lifted the ban placed some other condition (e.g. until the appeal is heard or, say, four weeks' hence) then there would be no mechanism for his case to be revisited. That is why such a course of action is extremely unusual. I would suggest he contacts the court to get somebody to look at the court record for his most recent hearing so that he can establish precisely what was decided.
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Typan
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 23:47
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QUOTE (NewJudge @ Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 21:16) *
I've had a look through this thread now and I will reiterate what I said earlier. He needs to be sure about what he has been told.

If you think about it logically, if the court has suspended his ban until his appeal is heard, his best course of action would be to simply fail to appeal. Unless the court that lifted the ban placed some other condition (e.g. until the appeal is heard or, say, four weeks' hence) then there would be no mechanism for his case to be revisited. That is why such a course of action is extremely unusual. I would suggest he contacts the court to get somebody to look at the court record for his most recent hearing so that he can establish precisely what was decided.

Thanks, he has been sent an appeal form by the court which says reply in 28 days and they have confirmed he is no longer banned pending appeal. He called the court again today to ask what offences he needed to appeal because the letter he received only referred to the no disclosures and she said she could only see one speeding offence relating to the October one. She said she would contact DVLA to see if she could clarify what he has been charged with and told him to call back tomorrow.

How much roughly would a solicitor cost ?
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peterguk
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 23:54
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QUOTE (Typan @ Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 23:47) *
How much roughly would a solicitor cost ?


At a guess £1000+.


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BertB
post Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 00:41
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QUOTE (Typan @ Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 21:32) *
So he has received an appeal form today however the only information relates to 2 failure to disclose and he isn’t aware of when,where the second speeding offence occurred. The letter also said some people can appeal to the magistrate court but it didn’t really explain under what circumstances?

Who can give him the information re the how the first 6 points occurred? The court, DVLA ?

He also got a letter today with a date for the magistrate to attend Friday to ask for the appeal to suspend his ban however obviously he went last week and it was definitely lifted because the taxi company made him call the court from their office as the DVLA apparently takes several days to update. He then called them and they said it looked like a mistake but the girl was off until tomorrow so to call back?


I have followed this thread from the start, and reread it again. He has never received any paperwork except (firstly) the letter stating he had received 6 points and secondly the SJPN for a further offence of failing to name the driver for which he was also convicted in his absence. These offences carry 6 points each. He seems convinced he has received points for speeding, but if he has never personally responded to an S.172 request it is unlikely he has been convicted of speeding as there is no evidence he was the driver.

In November he would not have received 6 points for any offence committed in October. This would have been an earlier instance of failing to furnish. The second notice would have been for a second offence of failing to furnish at a later date. This may or may not have been a notice relating to the Manchester Airport instance in October, but it is irrelevant as that is not a charge he is defending.

Where he thinks he may have been clocked speeding is irrelevant, or indeed when. He is facing two charges of failing to furnish driver details for each of the S.172 notices he says he did not receive. Each conviction carries 6 points, hence totting and being disqualified. That is what he is appealing conviction for. When you view his licence on DVLA, what does it say with regard to points and convictions now? As this is what matters with respect to the status of is licence.

As others have suggested, he needs a professional now to look over what he has and where he is at. Or at least an appropriate adult who can read and disseminate the information properly for him. Tell him not to drive until this has happened, as that story is garbled as well. He is still banned, he isn't still banned, its a mistake, girl off work, girl back in talking about him having points for speeding...
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Typan
post Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 07:37
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He has categorically been told by the court the ban has been suspended, as have the taxi company because he called the court in their presence and they confirmed it. The court can only see one speeding offence so how can he have 12 points for not producing or would the give 6 points x 2 for the same offence ?
Unfortunately he doesn’t have £1000 for a solicitor 😔
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peterguk
post Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 08:49
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QUOTE (Typan @ Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 07:37) *
He has categorically been told by the court the ban has been suspended, as have the taxi company because he called the court in their presence and they confirmed it. The court can only see one speeding offence so how can he have 12 points for not producing or would the give 6 points x 2 for the same offence ?
Unfortunately he doesn’t have £1000 for a solicitor ������


So nothing in writing from the court confirming ban lifted?

He has 12 points because that is what the court handed down. There is no doubt about that.

Sounds like a complete mess.

That's why the involvement of a solicitor has been suggested.

This post has been edited by peterguk: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 08:55


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BertB
post Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 13:27
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QUOTE (Typan @ Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 07:37) *
He has categorically been told by the court the ban has been suspended, as have the taxi company because he called the court in their presence and they confirmed it. The court can only see one speeding offence so how can he have 12 points for not producing or would the give 6 points x 2 for the same offence ?
Unfortunately he doesn’t have £1000 for a solicitor 😔


QUOTE
When you view his licence on DVLA, what does it say with regard to points and convictions now? As this is what matters with respect to the status of is licence.

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The Rookie
post Sat, 24 Feb 2018 - 08:41
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QUOTE (Typan @ Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 07:37) *
The court can only see one speeding offence so how can he have 12 points for not producing or would the give 6 points x 2 for the same offence ?

No wonder there is confusion when you aren't taking on board what you are told and then playing Chinese whispers with him. Your also using words willy nilly outside their normal meaning which further serves to confuse, its no wonder he's confused.
1/ He hasn't been convicted of speeding at all (unless its a third case), so I've no idea why one is showing at all, or are you referring to an S172 offence as speeding when its not?
2/ Its not 'not producing', its for failing to furnish drivers details. Failing to produce is an offence but very different to the one in question.
3/ Of course its two cases, go back to your first post where you told us there were two cases........... could be different courts and one not know about the other, no it cannot (it would need a major cockup and given your first post clearly telling us of two different offences that's unlikely) be 2x6 points for one offence.


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Typan
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 13:52
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Sorry I haven't posted for a while but I didn't want to add any further confusion until we had the facts.

The case manager from the magistrates court got back yesterday and put it all in an email to clarify what has happened.
copy/paste her email;

Dear Mr ??????

Following our telephone conversation, I felt it was necessary to follow up with an email in order to clarify some of your questions and direct you of the best instructions in order to deal with your cases correctly and promptly.

As I know you needed clarification on the offences that relate to the failure to give information. Also clarification was needed for one of the cases as you were unaware of this.

I will break each case down for you and share how to best resolve these as best I can;


Firstly the case of ?????? – ???????

• Failure to ID - On 24/10/2017 at the county of ????? having been required by, or on behalf of the chief officer of police for?????, Failed to give information relating to the identification of the driver of a vehicle, namely ??????, who was alleged to of been guilty of an offence.


•Offence - On 15/07/2017 at a ??????was involved in a slight injury, failed to stop road traffic collision, ??????– As I believe you were unware, This is the offence that relates to the above failure to give information relating to the identification of the driver


I have checked and this is the case that is being processed for an appeal held at ??????

Secondly the case of ?????– CHESHIRE


•Offence - On 08/07/2017 at Winwick drove a motor vehicle, namely a ????? on a motorway namely The M6, The M62 between junction 21a northbound and Junction 9 Westbound, at a speed exceeding 50 miles per hour, in contravention of a temporary maximum speed restriction


•Failure to ID - On 23/08/2017 at Winsford, having been required by or on behalf of the chief officer of police for Cheshire, failed to give information relating to the identification of the driver of a vehicle, namely a ??????who was alleged to of been guilty of an offence

As this is a Cheshire case, This cannot be heard for an appeal at ?????Crown Court, Both cases are two separate matters and require separate attention

In order to deal with the Cheshire case ?????? You will need to contact Warrington Magistrates Court in order to request an out of time appeal for this case ??????
On the appeal form there is the opportunity to request an out of time appeal and I have attached a copy of the form to this email.

It may be to your advantage to complete this form and send it to Warrington Magistrates before you call them. That way you can call them in a few days once you have sent your appeal to them to confirm they have received it,

As once they have received it they will send the information to Chester Crown Court where you will be given an appeal date to attend.

I personally have spoken to ???? Crown Court regarding your appeal. I have been given a name of who I need to speak to however they are currently unavailable, I will be speaking with them Monday and will call yourself Monday once I have

Your suspension of disqualification will stay in place until your appeal is heard before a court

If you have any questions do not hesitate to contact me, If you wish for me to send a copy of the appeal form to your address I can print this out and get it send to you asap

I have your address of ???????? Please let me know?

The accident which the offence refers to was he was waiting outside a nightclub to pick a fare up, a group of girls came out drunk and one fell onto his taxi folding in the mirror. He got out and asked if she was ok and her friends apologised saying they were sorry. It looks like she may have put in a claim with a claims company and this is how it has gone to court ? The owner of the car did tell him sometime last year that the police had been in contact about it and that they might contact him but he never heard nothing more of it and forgot all about it. This is the case that is going to appeal which resulted in his totting and why he was confused thinking it was two speeding offences.

It has taken the case manager all this time to find the information as she said it wasn't logged correctly on the system. She is calling him back Monday after she has spoken to person dealing with the appeal.

He now has to do an out of time appeal for the speeding (the Airport job)

This post has been edited by Typan: Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 13:56
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peterguk
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 14:05
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QUOTE (Typan @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 13:52) *
Your suspension of disqualification will stay in place until your appeal is heard before a court


Well at least that has been confirmed as was suspected here.


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Typan
post Sat, 3 Mar 2018 - 10:00
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 14:05) *
QUOTE (Typan @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 13:52) *
Your suspension of disqualification will stay in place until your appeal is heard before a court


Well at least that has been confirmed as was suspected here.


I did say they had suspended his disqualification ?
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peterguk
post Sat, 3 Mar 2018 - 10:09
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QUOTE (Typan @ Sat, 3 Mar 2018 - 10:00) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 14:05) *
QUOTE (Typan @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 13:52) *
Your suspension of disqualification will stay in place until your appeal is heard before a court


Well at least that has been confirmed as was suspected here.


I did say they had suspended his disqualification ?


My bad - i mis-read it as his ban was still in place. Odd, i wonder how long his suspension would last if he didn't go through with appeal.


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Redivi
post Sat, 3 Mar 2018 - 10:52
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I also had to read it several times

The disqualification is currently suspended until the appeal would have been much clearer

This post has been edited by Redivi: Sat, 3 Mar 2018 - 10:56
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NewJudge
post Sat, 3 Mar 2018 - 12:12
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Then his best bet is simply not to appeal. I don't know how the suspension of his disqualification will be reviewed unless he appeals.
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notmeatloaf
post Sat, 3 Mar 2018 - 12:52
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It would still be worth checking the DVLA database to make sure that they hold the same information as the court. As I have found out even if you can produce documents showing you have a valid licence they will still waste a lot of your time trying to seize your car if the computers says no.

If not as a minimum keep a copy of that email with him at all times whilst driving.

It is a very interesting point NewJudge makes about simply not appealing the conviction, I have to say I have not heard of an unconditional suspension before. The issue would potentially be if they realise and make things difficult in future it seems it would be difficult for him to defend any unusual process.
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Typan
post Sun, 4 Mar 2018 - 08:52
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I think it might be because there was no record of the offence on the computer so they might of realised he may not have been informed. It has taken the case manger over a week to establish how he got to twelve points, I think he is lucky she has been so accommodating because as I said previously it was extremely confusing.

The form from the court where he appeared and was told the ban was suspended said he had to submit it within 21 days, but the case manager is speaking to someone tomorrow to see where things are up to.

He has to send an out of time appeal re the speeding, I remember someone saying don’t plead guilty to the speeding until you get to court, does this still apply when it’s out of time ?

This post has been edited by Typan: Sun, 4 Mar 2018 - 08:53
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NewJudge
post Sun, 4 Mar 2018 - 13:18
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QUOTE (Typan @ Sun, 4 Mar 2018 - 08:52) *
He has to send an out of time appeal re the speeding, I remember someone saying don’t plead guilty to the speeding until you get to court, does this still apply when it’s out of time ?

No plea is entered for an appeal. As the title suggests, the defendant is appealing against his original conviction.

However, this is still a little unclear. Assuming the offence committed on 23/08/2017 (failure to provide details, etc) arose from the speeding allegation of 08/07/2017, he could not have been convicted of speeding. Since he failed to identify the driver no speeding prosecution was possible. So it seems his second appeal is against the “Fail to provide details” offence of 23/08/2017 and (providing the court accepts his second appeal “out of time”) he will be appealing against two convictions of “Failing to Provide Driver’s Details” for which he has already been convicted. I believe, from what you have said, that no speeding conviction is involved.

I haven’t read all the posts again but as far as I can recall, nowhere have you offered any explanation for these events other than to say that the taxi firm nominated him as the driver (for the first offence) and he received no notification himself. I assume that applies to the second as well. He needs to understand that the onus will shift to him to provide an explanation as to why he did not receive the notices. In the absence of any such explanation he will be asking the court to accept that at least two notices (and possibly reminders) addressed to him did not arrive. Does the taxi firm hold the correct details for him? Does he have problems generally with his mail? Is there any other reason why, providing the taxi firm provided the correct details, he would not have received his own notices? Simply turning up at the Crown Court and saying “I didn’t receive them” will not cut the mustard (if it did everybody would do it).
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Typan
post Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 10:29
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Sorry I have not responded for a while but it has taken ages to try to clarify what is going on.

It is now clear he was given 12 points for the 2 offences of failing to identify the driver for the speeding offence in Cheshire & the same offence relating to the minor traffic accident.

offence 1- Failure to provide ID re Speeding on motorway restricted to 50. They struggled to find this on the system that's why it took so long. He appealed to the magistrates who have come back and said that he can make a statutory declaration instead of appealing at Warrington or his local magistrates court. Does he say on this he agrees to the speeding etc. ?

Offence 2-Failure to provide ID relating to the minor traffic . He appealed this to the CC and he received a call from the court saying that the judge would take an appeal against sentence but not conviction. She said this would be difficult though because they had no details recorded for the traffic accident for which he was sentenced ? she said she did not know how the judge could deal with this. She said he could ask again to appeal both so he has submitted another appeal against both conviction and sentence as he wasn't aware any case had been brought following the girl who was drunk stumbling onto his mirror ?
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peterguk
post Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 10:41
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QUOTE (Typan @ Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 10:29) *
he received a call from the court saying that the judge would take an appeal against sentence but not conviction.


How can sentence be considered for change when FtF is always 6 points?

This post has been edited by peterguk: Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 10:45


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