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80 in a 40... Stupidity at its best, Threads merged
Vodac22
post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 10:25
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So,

3am this morning I’m driving home from work. Give it some beans on a straight between some roundabouts end up doubling the speed limit. Take a glance in the mirror and yes, the law are behind me. Marked unit but not traffic and no capture of my speed with a gun or the like just that he had to speed right up to catch me but I’ll say hes got me bent over a barrel.

I slow down, obviously, and I get a tug. Get out usual apology but also a greeting from the officer who I’ve not seen in years but was a familiar face in my delinquent past. We get chatting but by the time he’d stopped me he’d already called it in that I was well over the limit (proven by the 2 other cars turned up since) and says he can’t ignore it but he’s going to place me on a course. Fills out a TOR and infront of me ticks the skills box and says that I’ll get the letter for the course, happy days.

However, I am extremely sceptical even after our chat about how I’ve changed my life around and he was cutting me a break that I’d aftually be offered a course. Who knows, however I’m sure you’ll all tell me he was pulling my leg and my licence is up for a ban!

Opinions please.

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post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 10:25
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Logician
post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 10:33
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Whether you get the offer of a course or not depends on what speed he reports, in a 40 limit a course can be offered up to 53 mph.


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AntonyMMM
post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 10:35
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It isn't his decision, and all depends on what he actually wrote dow as your speed.

If the TOR says you were doing 80, then you will be going to court (and probably facing a short ban).

To get on a course, he will have had to do you a very big favour and understate your speed by a huge amount - doesn't sound very likely - but you will just have to wait and see what comes through the post.
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Vodac22
post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 10:39
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TOR said 80 and I pulled him on it and said it ain’t gonna swing when it goes to the office and he told me to trust him. Rule 1. Never trust the police.
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Jlc
post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 10:52
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QUOTE (Vodac22 @ Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 10:39) *
TOR said 80

Then it's bad news. It won't be a course or fixed penalty.

That can only be dealt with at court and is in the latest top level sentencing guidelines. A ban of around 2 months would not be unsurprising. (A fine around 1 weeks earnings, costs of £85 and surcharge of 10% of the fine (min £30). 6 points is possible but will strongly lean towards a ban unless you are a new driver.

As there's no exact speed measurement (it seems) then there's the possibility to 'agree' a realistic speed if that's possible. (But the top band starts a 66 mph so may not help)

QUOTE (Vodac22 @ Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 10:39) *
Rule 1. Never trust the police.

He was either defusing the situation or frankly was unaware of the thresholds for courses etc. (Anecdotally that's not unheard of!)

This post has been edited by Jlc: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 10:55


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Logician
post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 11:23
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QUOTE (Vodac22 @ Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 10:39) *
TOR said 80 and I pulled him on it and said it ain’t gonna swing when it goes to the office and he told me to trust him. Rule 1. Never trust the police.


What that was supposed to mean is anyone's guess, did the TOR say anything like it was not measured or it was an estimate?



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Vodac22
post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 12:11
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Just had a box for reported speed in which he wrote 80. Apparently I don’t get a cooy of the TOR just another piece of paper stating I’m being reported for consideration of prosecution etc etc
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AntonyMMM
post Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 16:52
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QUOTE (Vodac22 @ Wed, 15 Nov 2017 - 12:11) *
Just had a box for reported speed in which he wrote 80. Apparently I don’t get a cooy of the TOR just another piece of paper stating I’m being reported for consideration of prosecution etc etc


All you can do is wait for the (almost inevitable) summons to arrive ....which could be some months away.

In the meantime, You may want to consider whether a short ban (a few weeks perhaps) might be a more attractive option than getting 6 points ? You don't get to choose, but you can try and swing the court in one way or the other with a carefully worded mitigation statement ....
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Vodac22
post Tue, 26 Dec 2017 - 14:21
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Posted a while back about my stupidity, have now received a SJPN. My question is that is just says a date generated and does not contain a date charge authorised anywhere within it. Likelihood is I’m gonna plea guilty and go to court as I’m within my first two years and would like a short ban rather than retest as a fixed period of time off the road would be bearable to my clients but an indeterminate time would cripple my order book which is normally a fair bit in advance, so if I had to redo my test even after that I probably wouldn’t have work for about 2 months after.

The main question is how do I obtain statements and relevant dates from the plod before entering a plea (as normal with all criminal cases!)
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peterguk
post Tue, 26 Dec 2017 - 15:05
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QUOTE (Vodac22 @ Tue, 26 Dec 2017 - 14:21) *
Posted a while back about my stupidity,


That'll be this thread:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=116969&hl=

One case - one thread. No need to start a new thread.


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peterguk
post Tue, 26 Dec 2017 - 17:43
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QUOTE (Vodac22 @ Tue, 26 Dec 2017 - 14:21) *
My question is that is just says a date generated and does not contain a date charge authorised anywhere within it.


Does it need to?

It's obviously within 6 months of the offence.


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andy_foster
post Tue, 26 Dec 2017 - 19:05
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The SJPN must be issued at the same time as the Written Charge. AFAIK there is no explicit requirement for either document to bear an issue date, but if the prosecution were put to proof that they were issued at the same time, the lack of dates might make it difficult for them.


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NewJudge
post Wed, 27 Dec 2017 - 16:06
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QUOTE (Vodac22 @ Tue, 26 Dec 2017 - 14:21) *
...as I’m within my first two years and would like a short ban rather than retest


Do you mean from the above that it less than two years since you passed your first driving test (on any class of vehicle)?

If so (and assuming there is no issue with the written charge and the SJPN as outlined by Andy) you may be looking forward to licence revocation. The guideline penalty for your offence is either six points or an immediate disqualification. Where the court has such a choice there is specific guidance that if the points lead to licence revocation or a totting-up ban, then they should be imposed rather than a disqualification. You may be fortunate and come across a Bench where both they and their Legal Advisor are unaware of that guidance (unlikely) or they may choose not to follow it.

Assuming you plead guilty the Single Justice will be the first to visit that decision. If he or she wishes (I won't use both genders any more) he can simply follow the guidance and impose six points. Your licence revocation is not a matter for the court and it will be done by the DVLA when they hear of your points. If the SJ decides an immediate ban is worthy of consideration your case will be taken out of the SJ procedure and listed for a normal court hearing as you cannot be banned in your absence without first giving you the opportunity to attend court and to warn you of the consequences if you do not.
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Vodac22
post Tue, 2 Jan 2018 - 23:30
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Can i post it here the documents and you tell me if its worth chasing the missing dates?
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Logician
post Tue, 2 Jan 2018 - 23:55
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QUOTE (Vodac22 @ Tue, 2 Jan 2018 - 23:30) *
Can i post it here the documents and you tell me if its worth chasing the missing dates?


Seeing the documents will make no difference to what you have already been told. What would make a difference is if you passed a test on another class of vehicle more than two years ago, many people are under the misapprehension that they have a separate car and bike licence, for instance.



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cp8759
post Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 01:18
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QUOTE (Vodac22 @ Tue, 26 Dec 2017 - 14:21) *
The main question is how do I obtain statements and relevant dates from the plod before entering a plea (as normal with all criminal cases!)

Write to them asking for early disclosure of all information relevant to to plea, in accordance with R v DPP ex parte Lee [1999] 2 All ER 737


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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Vodac22
post Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 22:01
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Attended court yesterday with representations (£480) and walked out with a ten day ban and £500 fine. Great result.
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