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Peel centre Stockport excel parking, Fine
salvatore
post Fri, 24 May 2013 - 20:29
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Hi, I have just received a £60 parking fine from excel. My wife sat in the car while I went into toys r us with our son to chose a toy for him. We were in there for 37 minutes on MArch 24. Today MAy 21 I have received the ticket. I assumed that it was just a normal car park to be honest and my wife would have either paid or moved off. As we left the car was obviously photographed because we didn't enter a reg number at the pay station . I've heard lots of stories about people refusing to pay because they can't insist you pay up. Is this true, or do I have to pay? Regardssal
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post Fri, 24 May 2013 - 20:29
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SchoolRunMum
post Tue, 28 May 2013 - 19:04
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On this thread I suggested a stronger letter, worded as a Letter Before Action, designed to make them stop their harassment altogether:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=77257

POst #17 - you could adapt that if you want to be very strong with your letter and not fanny about 'refusing to pay' and naively calling it a 'fine' (NOOOO!!) which will just mean they will keep sending more letters.
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Jlc
post Tue, 28 May 2013 - 19:51
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QUOTE (salvatore @ Tue, 28 May 2013 - 19:59) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 28 May 2013 - 17:51) *
A solicitor would outweigh the cost of paying it. No need for that even at small claims court. You write back telling them that the Notice to Keeper had to be issued within 14 days of the 'incident' and that they've lost their right to pursue the registered keeper under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedom's Act. No need to get stressed - this is what they want to get you to pay up! Of course, you do have the choice to pay to ensure closure but no-one on here will recommend that. Don't tell them any details that could be used against you - like the wife staying in the car etc.

So when I write to them do I send the PCM back with my letter? When you say don't give them any details are you saying that I just write something like;Dear sirs, I am writing to inform you that I am refusing to pay your fine due to your letter not being sent to me 14 days after the alleged offence took place..


Dear Excel Parking,

Ref: PCN Number

As the registered keeper of the vehicle referenced in your 'Notice to Keeper', I must advise you that the noticed was issued outside the statutory deadline to pursue me under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedom's Act 2012.

Please do not contact me again unless you are advising me that you have cancelled the ticket or to provide a POPLA reference for them to advise you to cancel it.

Regards,
Salvatore.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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&roid
post Mon, 10 Jun 2013 - 20:39
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Can I jump in on this? I've had a similar ANPR PCN from excel for this carpark. Never saw the signs and it certainly never occurred to me that an out of town industrial estate would have pay and display! Won't be shopping there again.

Any way, the "offence" occurred on 18/5/13, they have sent me a PCN dated 28/5/13 BUT it didn't arrive with me until 30/5/13... How does the 14 day rule work? is it until the letter arrives or when it is dated?
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Jlc
post Mon, 10 Jun 2013 - 20:49
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When it arrives but it's on time either way. Best to start a new thread if you want specific advice on yours.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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&roid
post Mon, 10 Jun 2013 - 20:54
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 10 Jun 2013 - 21:49) *
When it arrives but it's on time either way. Best to start a new thread if you want specific advice on yours.


d'oh! if only I could count...

thanks - will appeal today.
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salvatore
post Thu, 20 Jun 2013 - 21:59
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Hi everyone, I took the advice on here and wrote to excel saying their PCN was out of date when it was served. In fact I wrote practically word for word what was printed in an above post.Today I have received a second letter saying; Please note that liability for this PCN lies with the driver of the vehicle at the time the parking contravention was observed.. It is, however, not made clear within your correspondence that you were the driver of the vehicle on the day in question and therefore we are at present unable to process your representations for this reason.
The following options are available;
1) confirm to us, in writing, that you were the driver of the vehicle on the day in question.2) notify the driver of the vehicle that they will need to appeal to us directly.3) pay The PCN.
As a gesture of goodwill, we have placed the case file on hold for a further 14 days to enable the above mentioned actions to be administered. If we receive either no payment or further communication by 2nd July, the right to appeal may be lost.Please be aware that if you fail to provide a valid name and address, we will revert to the registered keeper for recovery of the notice in accordance with the protection of freedom act 2012.At present the required payment of £100 is outstanding and is to be received within 2nd July. Failure to comply may result in the issue of court proceedings whereby further costs could be incurred.Yours sincerelym Kuttappa.
Where do I go from here?
Any help would be much appreciated.
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Pete P
post Thu, 20 Jun 2013 - 23:59
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QUOTE (salvatore @ Thu, 20 Jun 2013 - 22:59) *
As a gesture of goodwill,


PPC.....goodwill? icon_cheers.gif

Also they are talking bullshit. There is another thread here at the moment where the exact same thing is happening (it may even be the same company). They can't force you to name the driver and there's nothing in POFA or the BPA CoP that says only the driver can appeal. There is a certain time frame in which they must accept or reject your appeal after receiving it, if that deadline passes then they can no longer pursue the ticket. Since they have neither accepted nor rejected, and failed t to provide a POPLA code, you should just let the time tick down until they run out and then send them a letter thanking them.

I think the deadline is 35 days but others will be along to confirm I imagine.


--------------------
QUOTE
I discussed about it with solicitor and he said nothing to worry maximum £100 fine. On 30th July 2014 it was our Eid Day and because of Solicitor views
I didn't appear into the court and court issued me 6points on driving licence and total £745 fine. I paid and got points on licence.

PPC 1 - 7 Me
Council (bastards!) 3 - 2 Me
Pending: 2
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SchoolRunMum
post Fri, 21 Jun 2013 - 00:10
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Totally agree.

Do NOT respond now if they are saying that it's the driver's liability then they have no reason to bother the registered keeper further. Do not say who was driving, either on here or to Excel (obviously!!) as they seem to be hoping to pursue this as a non POFA charge un der the old system against the driver only.
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salvatore
post Fri, 21 Jun 2013 - 06:46
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Hi, Thanks for the replies. So what do I do now, just ignore their last letter?
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Jlc
post Fri, 21 Jun 2013 - 08:20
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The point being was the notice is not Schedule 4 compliant so they can't pursue the registered keeper under that Act. Their response is blasé as they ignored the point you made. The PPC's just think that PoFA gives them superhuman powers.

However, they could still try a court claim but they couldn't use Schedule 4 to pursue the RK. It's back to the 'old school' way where the driver has to be pursued.

You could ignore them or you could tell them that their response is hogwash as they quote an Act that they cannot (now) use.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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nigelbb
post Fri, 21 Jun 2013 - 09:34
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PPCs cannot change horses mid-stream. They obtained keeper details from the DVLA on the basis that they were going to chase the keeper for unpaid parking charges as per POFA 2012. They cannot then using that data harass the keeper to give up the details of the driver.


--------------------
British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice(Appendix C contains Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 ) & can be found here http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Code-of-Pr...ance-monitoring
DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...ing-charges.pdf
Damning OFT advice on levels of parking charges that was ignored by the BPA Ltd Reference Request Number: IAT/FOIA/135010 – 12 October 2012
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Jlc
post Fri, 21 Jun 2013 - 10:00
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Absolutely - the DVLA released the data on the basis that the PPC was to write to the keeper to invite them to name the driver. Should they not choose to name the driver then they could exercise Schedule 4 to pursue the keeper instead - but they haven't met the conditions to pursue the RK.

They can still attempt a court claim (under contract law) with the driver (or attempt to implicate the keeper as the driver) - 'old school' as we call it. The DVLA may have released the data without reasonable cause but the horse has bolted. Indeed, a complaint the DVLA is in order anyway as they are proposing to pursue the RK with data they have no right to. If you want you could write to the PPC and tell them that they have obtained your details without reasonable cause and that it must be destroyed otherwise you will report the breach to the Information Commissioner's Office as a breach of the Data Protection Act.

Most PPC letters include this - i.e. that your details have been released from by the DVLA with reasonable cause as they comply with the DPA and that the ICO should be notified if you think otherwise...

This post has been edited by Jlc: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 - 10:00


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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nigelbb
post Fri, 21 Jun 2013 - 10:11
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Is there some way that the PPCs can be prevented from chopping & changing between using POFA & going old school? A statement given to the police may be inadmissible as evidence if it's given without a caution being administered. I am sure that there is a legal maxim with the obligatory Latin tag that a claimant cannot benefit from their wrongdoing. Something to do with having clean hands??? Aha a quick Google & here we are:-

QUOTE
clean hands doctrine n. a rule of law that a person coming to court with a lawsuit or petition for a court order must be free from unfair conduct (have "clean hands" or not have done anything wrong) in regard to the subject matter of his/her claim


--------------------
British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice(Appendix C contains Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 ) & can be found here http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Code-of-Pr...ance-monitoring
DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...ing-charges.pdf
Damning OFT advice on levels of parking charges that was ignored by the BPA Ltd Reference Request Number: IAT/FOIA/135010 – 12 October 2012
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bama
post Fri, 21 Jun 2013 - 13:30
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isn't Clean Hands a doctrine of equity


--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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salvatore
post Sat, 22 Jun 2013 - 07:44
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I'm sorry but I'm completely lost now.
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Jlc
post Sat, 22 Jun 2013 - 12:38
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QUOTE (salvatore @ Sat, 22 Jun 2013 - 08:44) *
I'm sorry but I'm completely lost now.


Dear Excel Parking,

Ref: PCN Number

Please refer to my previous letter where I advised you that your 'Notice to Keeper' was issued outside the statutory deadline of 14 days - I refer you to section 9(5) of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedom's Act 2012. Since you have failed to meet the strict conditions to pursue the registered keeper I insist you desist from contacting me and contact the driver instead. You state that you will pursue the registered keeper but your failure to comply with the Act means this right is not available to you.

I also remind you of section 22.12 of the BPA Ltd's Code of Practice where an appeal is rejected that you must "tell the driver how to make an appeal to POPLA. This includes providing a template ‘notice of appeal’ form, or a link to the appropriate website for lodging an appeal".

Do not contact me again unless you are advising me that you have cancelled the ticket or to provide a POPLA reference for them to advise you to cancel it.

Regards,
Salvatore.


This post has been edited by Jlc: Sat, 22 Jun 2013 - 12:41


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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salvatore
post Wed, 4 Sep 2013 - 20:51
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Hello everyone , I thought excel had given up on me today I received another letter;
It looks a little similar to my original one but with lots of red capital letters on it.
It just says it is a liability notice for £100.
They go on to say that no discount can be applied as I've ran out of time. At the bottom it does say
Should payment no be received within the specified time frame, we will pursue the outstanding payment using our appointed debt recovery agents and/or through litigation for which additional costs may be incurred .
Do I just ignore this letter after my last two replies?
Getting worried now
Regards Sal
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SchoolRunMum
post Wed, 4 Sep 2013 - 23:18
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Nope, report them and reply again I say, in the style of Broadsword's complaints here:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=80531

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=81284&st=0

Oh, and complain to the CEO of the Peel Centre like the person you see here among all the successful complaint threads I have collated recently on MSE (where I post as Coupon-mad):

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showth....php?p=62837690

Click on several but especially the recent complaint to the Peel Centre success. Do the same!
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salvatore
post Sat, 7 Sep 2013 - 12:20
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I must be a thicko or something, sorry. I just can't get my head around this now and when I look at other peoples complains and replies I'm concerned that I am not going about this the right way. The trouble is, I'm obviously in to deep now with them wanting £100 Sal
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SchoolRunMum
post Sat, 7 Sep 2013 - 14:28
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QUOTE (salvatore @ Sat, 7 Sep 2013 - 13:20) *
I must be a thicko or something, sorry. I just can't get my head around this now and when I look at other peoples complains and replies I'm concerned that I am not going about this the right way. The trouble is, I'm obviously in to deep now with them wanting £100 Sal



What do you mean...you don't understand what the PPC have done wrong?

Look at this checklist, come on, take some time and sit down and read it because (not being funny!) we don't do spoon-feeding on here and exact links are surely enough (except if someone doesn't have English as their first language - are you Italian-speaking or something, please tell us if you really do some help with this English wording & advice? I help where it's justified but forgive me for getting frustrated when far too many English posters act dumb. You wouldn't believe it but so many can't even write a poxy letter! Not saying that's you but this is what we come up against on here and it's hard to tell the apathy from the genuine need):

http://www.parkingcowboys.co.uk/keeper-liability/

That link is written in plain English so you can see why you can complain, and then re-read Broadsword's posts on that other thread.

This post has been edited by SchoolRunMum: Sat, 7 Sep 2013 - 14:31
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