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Euro Car Parks
aimone
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 21:34
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Hi,

Wondering if anyone can help, received a PCN, not really wanting to ignore this as the car is through an employee car lease scheme, the company received the NTK(who then moved liability over, how should i proceed with this ticket, appeal?

Thanks in advance

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This post has been edited by aimone: Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 09:28
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post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 21:34
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bearclaw
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 21:49
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Did the leasing company send the first NTK back to Euro? Has Euro then sent on *all* the stuff they need to under POFA to you including the extracts from the lease/hire ?
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ostell
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 21:58
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How can the parking company know who was driving? Do not, ever identify the driver, or even hint. It is the keeper, the person looking after the car, that always appeals. Edit you post so that the identity of the driver cannot be inferred. Forget about the owner, there is the registered keeper, ie the person recorded by the DVLA and the name on the V5 and the keeper who looks after the car on a day to day basis. Two separate legal entities.

Is this car leased by your company from a lease company and then handed to you to keep or is the car owned by your company, ie their name is on the V5? Is it your name on the Notice to Keeper or the name of your company? The NTK doesn't comply with The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 to be able to hold the keeper as there are missing wording on there. If your company is the registered keeper then the NTK has not been delivered within 14 days if there was no windscreen ticket and again the keeper cannot be held liable.

Here's the legislation that is used to chase the keeper when they don't know the identity of the driver. If your company own the car and there is no windscreen ticket then it's paragraph 9 otherwise it's paragraph 8. If your company lease the car then it's paragraph 14.

This post has been edited by ostell: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 22:00
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aimone
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 22:07
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Euro has sent nothing over with the new pcn once liability was shifted, this letter was all that was received.

attached the original which the company received in the first place.

Thanks

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bearclaw
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 22:20
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You need to read section 14 of the protection of freedom act then.

They've missed important things out so they cannot hold the keeper liable only the driver - so make sure you never ever say who was driving and always refer to yourself as the keeper.
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ostell
post Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 08:42
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OK, so Euro is involved. So is that PCN addressed directly to your company, with your company name on the top, or is it a copy of the PCN that was sent to Euro then Euro sent it to your company, as they are obliged to do? Sheeeesh it's like pulling teeth.
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aimone
post Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 09:02
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Is this the relevant paragraph i should be looking at?

(2)The conditions are that—
(a)the creditor has within the relevant period given the hirer a notice in accordance with sub-paragraph (5) (a “notice to hirer”), together with a copy of the documents mentioned in paragraph 13(2) and the notice to keeper;

I also took photos of the car park as there seems to be no signage in the carpark, is that something else that should be displayed properly?

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This post has been edited by aimone: Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 11:07
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ostell
post Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 09:12
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Please answer the questions, I'm trying to determine which bit of POFA to use for appealing. You also keep identifying the driver. Use the phrase "The driver ....." etc. If the driver is identified then it's game over and lost. Go and edit your posts so that the identity of the driver cannot be inferred. There is no interest in the identity of the driver and it is not important and should be kept hidden.

There are three entities involved here: The registered keeper, the keeper and the driver. The parking company want the identity of the driver to make life simple. They have been known to make use of forums in court to show who was driving. Your opportunity to edit disappears with time.
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aimone
post Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 09:22
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QUOTE (ostell @ Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 08:42) *
OK, so Euro is involved. So is that PCN addressed directly to your company, with your company name on the top, or is it a copy of the PCN that was sent to Euro then Euro sent it to your company, as they are obliged to do? Sheeeesh it's like pulling teeth.


The first pcn was addressed to the company, who then forwarded liability to the keeper of the car, which then the keeper received the 2nd pcn with no other documents, just the pcn linked in the first post.

"Is this car leased by your company from a lease company and then handed to you to keep or is the car owned by your company, ie their name is on the V5? Is it your name on the Notice to Keeper or the name of your company? The NTK doesn't comply" -
the car is leased by employee through the company, company is registered keeper, employee is on the V5 as far as im aware, (the employee can have another one of these cars to hand to someone else who doesnt work for the actual company, which is the case here)

Sorry im not very good at this sort of stuff.

This post has been edited by aimone: Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 09:47
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ostell
post Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 10:39
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The company cannot be the registered keeper and the employee's name be on the V5, not possible. This needs to be sorted out definitively as it affects the nature of the appeal. Again is the vehicle owned by your company or is it obtained from a leasing company.

Trying to use 14 (2) (a) as the appeal as the lease companies very rarely get it right and it's a POFA fail and they can't hold the keeper liable.

If your company is the registered keeper then if there was no windscreen ticket then the NTK was received too late (more than 14 days) for keeper liability to apply. In this case it's a failure in paragraph 9. If it is a car obtained from a leasing company then there is an extended time to get the NTK to the keeper.

If your company is the registered keeper and they have told Euro that you are the hirer then you should have a NTK in your name. Have you? If it is in your name then with the NTK should have been a copy of the hire/lease agreement and a copy of the original NTK. Was there these documents?

So there is still confusion about the status of the car. It does need to be sorted out.

It seems that the PCN in the first post is dated 5/2/18 and is this one addressed to you? And di it have the required documents with it.

The PCN in post #4 is dated 5/1/18, received 8/1/19. In itself it is out of time for keeper liability.

Go through your post #7, the identity of the driver is still there.

I am thinking that the rejection of the charge will be two fold: Failure to deliver the original PCN within 14 days and failure to include required documents to hirer.
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bearclaw
post Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 10:43
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Change your post #7. You keep identifying who the driver is!

OK Ostell beat me to it haha

The reason we ask you to do this is that normall the parking companies can only chase the driver and they must prove who the driver was.

Only if they follow the stringent requirements in the POFA can they make you - the KEEPER of the vehicle pay up. They usually fail to follow these requirements - so the Keeper isnt liable, and there is no law that says the Keeper must identify the Driver. (and if they tell you something about Elliot vs Loake they are lying)

QUOTE (ostell @ Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 10:39) *
I am thinking that the rejection of the charge will be two fold: Failure to deliver the original PCN within 14 days and failure to include required documents to hirer.


That would be my line too it's a clear winner on both points.

This post has been edited by bearclaw: Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 10:42
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aimone
post Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 11:39
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There was a windscreen ticket (PCN) attached to the car so im not sure it was out of time.

#4 is addressed to the company, who received the first ntk: "If you intend to appeal this PCN it may be necessary for us to transfer liability to you first in order for the charging company to consider your appeal. If you would like me to transfer liability to you please let me know."

#1 is addressed to me and was received after the company transferred liability - no other supporting documents were received with this (dont have a hire agreement, its a finance agreement).

Sorry i maybe have worded things wrong, this is a loan car not leased, "The legal owner of the vehicle is always the employee who has signed the loan car agreement."

Original email sent to me from the company:

"Dear Colleague,

Please find attached a Penalty Charge Notice which we have received from xxxxxxxx for your loan vehicle registration xxxxxxx

If you intend to appeal this PCN it may be necessary for us to transfer liability to you first in order for the charging company to consider your appeal. If you would like me to transfer liability to you please let me know.

Could you please let me know once this fine has been settled, or if you intend to appeal this fine so that I can keep xxxxx informed.

All payments should be made directly and before unnecessary charges are added on from both the charging company and xxxxxxxx*, details are as attached.

*Please see clause 6.2 of the xxxxxxxxxxxx – a £50.00 admin fee will be charged to you if xxxxxx continue to receive further notifications from the charging company and have to be involved in the settlement of unpaid fines/penalties due to your failure to resolve the charge.

This post has been edited by aimone: Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 12:08
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bearclaw
post Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 12:12
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So far there appears to be a company and a leasing company and you all of whom are involved in this.

You need to specificy what the situation is more clearly.

Is there a leasing company whos name is on the V5 for the vehicle?

Is there a company that leases it from them and whom you work for?

Or is it leased direct from the leasing company by yourself?
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aimone
post Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 12:59
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QUOTE (bearclaw @ Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 12:12) *
So far there appears to be a company and a leasing company and you all of whom are involved in this.

You need to specificy what the situation is more clearly.


The company i work for is also owned by the company who give out the cars on the loan scheme.

QUOTE (bearclaw @ Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 12:12) *
Is there a leasing company whos name is on the V5 for the vehicle?


My name is on the v5 (owner), company is registered keeper.

QUOTE (bearclaw @ Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 12:12) *
Is there a company that leases it from them and whom you work for?


The company i work for is owned by the company that gives me the car, just a different name, (this is a car company)

This post has been edited by aimone: Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 13:01
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bearclaw
post Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 13:13
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QUOTE (aimone @ Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 12:59) *
QUOTE (bearclaw @ Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 12:12) *
So far there appears to be a company and a leasing company and you all of whom are involved in this.

You need to specificy what the situation is more clearly.


The company i work for is also owned by the company who give out the cars on the loan scheme.

QUOTE (bearclaw @ Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 12:12) *
Is there a leasing company whos name is on the V5 for the vehicle?


My name is on the v5 (owner), company is registered keeper.

QUOTE (bearclaw @ Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 12:12) *
Is there a company that leases it from them and whom you work for?


The company i work for is owned by the company that gives me the car, just a different name, (this is a car company)


The name on the V5 is the registered Keeper the V5 has no bearing on who the owner is.

Was the first NTK sent to you then since they will have your name as keeper from when they made the request to DVLA.?
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aimone
post Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 13:24
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the first NTK was sent to the company as they are registered keeper, who then forwarded to me as im the owner.
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 13:27
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The V5 ONLY records who the REGISTERED KEEPER of the vehicle is
It never, ever can record who the *owner* is.

Your name may be on the V5, but I presume the address is the company address?

Do you truly mean forwarded? As in, they didnt respond back to the parking company to say "the keeper is Aimone"? Or did they in fact send it back to the PPC, saying "the keeper is Aimone and their address is 123 made up street"?

canyou see how you must be precise in this, so we can understand whats happened, versus makiung stuff up that isnt true - like the pwner being recorded on the V5?
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ostell
post Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 13:37
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I've said it before and I'll say it again.... Your name cannot be on the V5 and your company the registered keeper, the name on the V5 is the registered keeper.

No matter, the situation seems to be reasonably clear so far.

As you didn't receive any additional documentation then your response will be:

Dear Sirs,

I am the Keeper of vehicle xxxx and I am responding to your Notice to Keeper dated 6/2/18 but was received on xxxxxx.

You have failed to comply with the requirements of schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, namely, but not limited to, 14 (2) (a), failing to deliver the prescribed documents with the Notice to Hirer/Keeper. I cannot therefore be held liable for the actions of the driver at the time. There is no legal requirement for me to identify who was driving at the time and I will not be doing so. I do not expect to hear from you again except to confirm that no further action will be taken on this matter.

Yours etc.


Wait till about 18 days after the date of the letter to send this in so that they cannot correct their mistake and reissue a corrected NTK within the required time of 21 days and send the missing documents. Get a free certificate of posting from a Post Office so that you can prove that you sent it.

They have failed in so many ways with this. Have a read of paragraph 14 to see what should actually be there and they have fallen miserably short.

Point out to whoever needs to be informed that it has been appealed and this is not a penalty, fine or any other official legal charge. It is merely a speculative invoice from a private company who have no authority or rights to issue fines or penalties. The £50 charge is therefore not applicable as it does not meet the criteria in clause 6.2. Having named you as the keeper at the time of the event then they have discharged their liabilities to the parking company in full and any payments made on the receipt of further communications from the parking company without due diligence would be foolhardy and not of your concern. (you could leave that last bit out if they haven't charged you the £50 yet, but bear it in mind.)


This post has been edited by ostell: Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 13:43
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aimone
post Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 13:39
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 13:27) *
The V5 ONLY records who the REGISTERED KEEPER of the vehicle is
It never, ever can record who the *owner* is.

Your name may be on the V5, but I presume the address is the company address?

Do you truly mean forwarded? As in, they didnt respond back to the parking company to say "the keeper is Aimone"? Or did they in fact send it back to the PPC, saying "the keeper is Aimone and their address is 123 made up street"?

canyou see how you must be precise in this, so we can understand whats happened, versus makiung stuff up that isnt true - like the pwner being recorded on the V5?


forwarded meaning, they sent me an email with the scanned NTK with the text i pasted in the previous post asking if i want to take liability, my name and address were then sent to PPC and an NTK was sent to me after requesting to take liability.

sorry its the companies name and address on the v5.

I did read the section 14, but this was a finance agreement not a hire agreement, which isnt public information as far as im aware.

This post has been edited by aimone: Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 13:46
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bearclaw
post Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 13:41
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QUOTE (aimone @ Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 13:39) *
QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 13:27) *
The V5 ONLY records who the REGISTERED KEEPER of the vehicle is
It never, ever can record who the *owner* is.

Your name may be on the V5, but I presume the address is the company address?

Do you truly mean forwarded? As in, they didnt respond back to the parking company to say "the keeper is Aimone"? Or did they in fact send it back to the PPC, saying "the keeper is Aimone and their address is 123 made up street"?

canyou see how you must be precise in this, so we can understand whats happened, versus makiung stuff up that isnt true - like the pwner being recorded on the V5?


forwarded meaning, they sent me an email with the scanned NTK with the text i pasted in the previous post asking if i want to take liability, my name and address were then sent to PPC and an NTK was sent to me after requesting to take liability.

sorry its the companies name and address on the v5.


OK. So is the vehicle hired or leased to you? Or are you using it by virtue of being an employee?

This post has been edited by bearclaw: Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 13:42
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