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Help Needed, Zipcar PCN! £145 fine
stevenl123
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 23:36
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Hi there,

In advance of anyone replying to this, thanks for any input anyone has on this. Here is my situation. I have attached the NTO as well as better quality pictures I was able to get.

On Saturday Zipcar emailed me to inform me I had a PCN from my local council in relation to when I hired a car for 30 mins in early December. The PCN was in fact issued the next day, almost 16 hours after my reservation ended (unsure if this helps).

The PCN is for £130 + £15 admin fee for Zipcar. I picked up and dropped the car off in the same space. It turns out the bay was out of order for the day I hired and the following day (when ticket was issued). I used the app to book, unlock and end the reservation and at no point did it tell this to me. However, I have since learnt that my booking confirmation did have this information right at the bottom of the email, which I did not read due to booking it 15 mins prior to starting the trip. Photos do show the sign saying this but to be honest I did not notice this at all at the time, it was not clear really.

The PCN was issued on 8th December and I only found out now and thus missed the window for 50% discount. This was only due to ZIpcar not telling me which they are claiming is because they only round out as they received a Notice to Owner from the council.

I feel that this is highly unfair mainly as it was not made clear at the time of booking via the app (bottom of an email isn't clear in my view) and secondly due to the long delay resulting in the fine doubling.

I have sent one email asking about the 14 days bit and their response was this:

"In regards to the PCN being at the full rate, when a PCN is first issued and placed on the vehicle there is usually a 14 day window within which a reduced rate of 50% is payable.

If a ticket is found on the vehicle by a member, and we are made aware, we do all we can to alert the member responsible and give them the opportunity to either appeal or pay at the reduced rate.

Unfortunately as we were unaware of this PCN until the Notice To Owner was sent to us, by which time the window for the reduced rate had closed, we were not able to inform you until the full rate of £130 was due.

I understand that this is a frustrating situation, but we need you to remember that PCNs are not issued by Zipcar, but by the local authority. We try to accommodate our members as best we can, but we, as a company need to recover the costs of these fines from the members responsible."

Long story short, is there anything I can do to avoid paying this PCN? I feel it is unfair and normally would pay these sorts of things if I felt I had intentionally been at fault.

Thanks again.

This post has been edited by stevenl123: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 23:09
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post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 23:36
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4101
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 23:38
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I would tell Zipcar to stick their admin fee.

I see they are now part of Avis, how depressing.

I suggest you contact the council and ask if you can pay at 50%.

If the pcn was served after the hire time has expired then, arguably, Avis is liable, but if you go that route they will freak of course.

The only way I can see to fight it is to ask for all the photos, it is unclear if they have put up a three-sided 'triangle sign' or just a one sided one which is easy to miss.

You can also ask for the Order which suspended the bay (I think this still requires an Order).

This post has been edited by 4101: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 23:53
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Irksome
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 09:02
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Please post a copy of the PCN (or if you don't have copy, the exact time and date on the PCN).

What time/date did you hire the car from and until what time/date?

Streetview link?

Zipcar agreement?
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stamfordman
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 09:43
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So the car was parked in a suspended bay when you picked it up?
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Neil B
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 11:22
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Hire Co outside process again and imposing terms on OP.

This should not be allowed.
OP is not, directly, liable in law relating to PCN and has no right to make reps.

I'd be asking Zip why they haven't transferred liability.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 12:54


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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hcandersen
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 12:02
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As far as I can see, the OP's case has nothing to do with parking regs, but let's try and get the correct facts in play, at present the OP's account is inconsistent.

A NTO has been served on Avis. Therefore we can presume that a PCN was served on the vehicle, I think this is supported by one of the photos. The time of contravention was 12.56.

OP, when did you park the vehicle?

IMO, if before 12.56 and the vehicle was not moved subsequently, then Avis are entitled to hold you liable because you parked the vehicle in contravention. Who else ahould pay?

And subject to your confirmation, the NTO is simply Avis's evidence to you to support their charge of £130 +, it is not a request for you to deal with it. They've paid and as far as parking regs and the authority are concerned, the matter is closed.

Contractually, if for some reason you were obliged by Avis to park the vehicle at the location, then they should foot the bill, but you would need to take this up with them contractually, there is no route through parking.

But you appear to acknowledge that the instructions from Avis asvised you of this problem, so your chances of recovering your money contractually are slim.
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Mad Mick V
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 12:07
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Then why didn't Avis tell the enforcement authority that the liability was the OP's and have them send a lower level penalty charge to him?

Something not right here.

Mick
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stamfordman
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 12:10
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Zip is supposed to have "a contingency procedure agreed with the issuing authority for each of our locations to make sure that the vehicle can still be left parked legally". So did they tell you where to leave the car?
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hcandersen
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 12:13
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Why would they be required to do this?

If anything, this relates to the contract and the principle of mitigating their losses, but the OP still has gaps to fill in, mainly Avis's letter.
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Neil B
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 12:20
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 12:02) *
As far as I can see, the OP's case has nothing to do with parking regs,

And subject to your confirmation, the NTO is simply Avis's evidence to you to support their charge of £130 +, it is not a request for you to deal with it. They've paid and as far as parking regs and the authority are concerned, the matter is closed.

What happens to his basic right to challenge under Regs.

How can Avis impose a contractual obligation without passing the opportunity to defend himself.

In such cases I can't equate 'transferring liability', prescribed by Regs, as being optional.

You've opined on contravention: What if there was a clear case to contest?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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DancingDad
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 12:27
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I'm with HCA.
Law imposes Owner Liability.
It is up to the owner to decide how to deal with a Notice to Owner.
Which includes paying it, there is nothing in parking law that requires the owner to fight a PCN, it only provides the options to do so.

After that, it becomes contractual between Zip Car and Person Hiring the vehicle.

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 12:27
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 12:51
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 12:27) *
I'm with HCA.
Law imposes Owner Liability.
It is up to the owner to decide how to deal with a Notice to Owner.
Which includes paying it, there is nothing in parking law that requires the owner to fight a PCN, it only provides the options to do so.

After that, it becomes contractual between Zip Car and Person Hiring the vehicle.


Can't see any other view. The council have done nothing wrong, they issued a PCN, it wasn't paid so issue a NTO on the RK. They pay. All correct
it is the driver that commits the offence, but liability rests with the owner. that liability can be transferred does not mean it has to be. TBH if its hired online at short notice, it is possible that a hire agreement form does not exist.

Is this a case whereby the practicalities of owner liability have been placed in front of the drivers culpability.

is it fair or even legal for a commercial/consumer contract to negate a fundamental right ?
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hcandersen
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 13:14
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@PMB, the council are not demanding anything from the OP, so no question of 'rights' under the parking regs.

Avis are demanding - and appear to have paid BUT the OP has yet to post the all-important letter - payment from the OP pursuant to them incurring a loss which contractually they're permitted to recover from the OP.
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DancingDad
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 13:19
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 12:51) *
........Is this a case whereby the practicalities of owner liability have been placed in front of the drivers culpability.

is it fair or even legal for a commercial/consumer contract to negate a fundamental right ?


Different arguments and purely contractual.
The rights of the person who is liable to pay the PCN are fully protected.

Whether or not contractual terms are fair to the driver or in any way negate whatever consumer rights they may have, depends on what those terms are.
I cannot see Human Rights or ECHR Rights being affected by anything that a consumer may be asked to sign unless under duress.

End of the day, driver signs a contractual agreement... doesn't have to but is expected to have read and understood terms.
Which probably includes a clause that says they are liable for unpaid penalties and include an admin fee.
Depends on exact wording but nothing in that legally unfair.

So Driver parks in a suspended bay. Were they told to? Was the suspension clearly signed, was this a PCN that was so patently wrong that Zip Car acted wholly unreasonably in not contesting, was the driver the one who parked the vehicle or was it another, later driver.....
All questions (amongst many others) that a civil judge would want answers to in making a decision should driver decide to argue the toss and launch a civil action against ZipCar.
Cos that is the only way IMO that they will get money back.
ZipCar may be amenable to discussions and even negotiation but bottom line is, they signed a contract and on the face of it, copped a PCN which they did not deal with.
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 13:24
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 13:14) *
@PMB, the council are not demanding anything from the OP, so no question of 'rights' under the parking regs.

Avis are demanding - and appear to have paid BUT the OP has yet to post the all-important letter - payment from the OP pursuant to them incurring a loss which contractually they're permitted to recover from the OP.



HCA I did not intend to intimate that the council denied a right. rather that the contract with AVIS does so. It is effectively, if you are accused of an offence you must pay.

There may be no right under parking regs, but by having that denied by the contract, has the fundamental right been frustrated
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Neil B
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 13:48
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Person by whom a penalty charge is to be paid
5.—(1) Where a parking contravention occurs, the person by whom the penalty charge for the contravention is to be paid shall be determined in accordance with the following provisions of this regulation.

(2) In a case not falling within paragraph (3), the penalty charge shall be payable by the person who was the owner of the vehicle involved in the contravention at the material time.

(3) Where—

(a)the vehicle is a mechanically propelled vehicle which was, at the material time, hired from a vehicle-hire firm under a hiring agreement;
(b)the person hiring it had signed a statement of liability acknowledging his liability in respect of any penalty charge notice served in respect of any parking contravention involving the vehicle during the currency of the hiring agreement; and
©in response to a notice to owner served on him, the owner of the vehicle made representations on the ground specified regulation 4(4)(d) of the Representations and Appeals Regulations and the enforcement authority accepted those representations,
the penalty charge shall be payable by the person by whom the vehicle was hired and that person shall be treated as if he were the owner of the vehicle at the material time for the purposes of these Regulations.

Ok, I see the problem with © but I'm not happy.

But it's another where OP is disinterested and removed the doc without explanation.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 13:57
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 13:48) *
Person by whom a penalty charge is to be paid
5.—(1) Where a parking contravention occurs, the person by whom the penalty charge for the contravention is to be paid shall be determined in accordance with the following provisions of this regulation.

(2) In a case not falling within paragraph (3), the penalty charge shall be payable by the person who was the owner of the vehicle involved in the contravention at the material time.

(3) Where—

(a)the vehicle is a mechanically propelled vehicle which was, at the material time, hired from a vehicle-hire firm under a hiring agreement;
(b)the person hiring it had signed a statement of liability acknowledging his liability in respect of any penalty charge notice served in respect of any parking contravention involving the vehicle during the currency of the hiring agreement; and
©in response to a notice to owner served on him, the owner of the vehicle made representations on the ground specified regulation 4(4)(d) of the Representations and Appeals Regulations and the enforcement authority accepted those representations,
the penalty charge shall be payable by the person by whom the vehicle was hired and that person shall be treated as if he were the owner of the vehicle at the material time for the purposes of these Regulations.

Ok, I see the problem with © but I'm not happy.

But it's another where OP is disinterested and removed the doc without explanation.


There needs to be an amendment to the law, whereby a hire firm must transfer liability, and if they cannot because the did not complete the agreement correctly then tough
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stevenl123
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 14:15
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Hi all,

Apologies for the delay in responding to these. Work is a killer at the moment. I never received the PCN, first I heard of it was this NTO which zip car sent to me.

I do not believe Zipcar has made the payment to the council yet but I imagine they will by end of the week.

Please let me know the exact information I should provide everyone to discuss this further?

Cheers
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stamfordman
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 14:20
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Did they say where you should have returned the car after the hire?
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 14:29
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QUOTE (stevenl123 @ Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 14:15) *
Hi all,

Apologies for the delay in responding to these. Work is a killer at the moment. I never received the PCN, first I heard of it was this NTO which zip car sent to me.

I do not believe Zipcar has made the payment to the council yet but I imagine they will by end of the week.

Please let me know the exact information I should provide everyone to discuss this further?

Cheers


Two things you need to know./do
Have zipcar paid yet? If not tell them you intend to appeal

In order for you to do this they must transfer liability using the ground cited by Neil above. Or they could give you permission to do this on their behalf.

for them to do this simply if you have not already done so they must complete a hiring agreement signed by you and them that complies with this

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/2546/schedule/2/made
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