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Typan
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 20:55
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My daughters boyfriend is a private hire driver with a settle car not registered in his name. In October last year he must have been caught on camera dropping someone at Manchester Airport, he was doing 70 when it had been restricted to 50. In November he received a letter saying because he didn’t give the information of who was driving he had been given 6 points. He called up the court to ask what was it about as he hadn’t had a letter and was told to do a statutory declaration and was given a date. Just before the date to do this he received a summons on referral for this month to attend a court where the speeding had happened.

The court date was yesterday and he forgot about it and did not attend, he was convinced it was 16th and only realised after my daughter told him to check (got the letter 3 mthis ago, I know, no excuse)

As soon as he realised he called the court and was told he had been disqualified for 6mths, prior to this his licence was clean.

I am presuming they doubled the initial 3 points to 6 then 6 for not informing them. The thing is that the keeper of the car (taxi firm) must have provided driver details otherwise how would they have got his address. He is totally distraught as he has never had any dealings with the courts so he was totally naive to what was going on.

He has not only lost his licence but also his job if he doesn’t get this sorted, he really doesn’t know what to do , so I’m hoping someone can offer some advice.

Thanks
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post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 20:55
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The Rookie
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 14:26
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Not at all, a 6 month totting ban removes the points that triggered it, perfectly normal and not at all confusing.

Those should both be MS90 not MS0, which is the correct licence endorsement code for failing to provide drivers details.


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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 14:27
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No, it states you are disqualified

AND

that you have 0 points. TT99 clears the poitns off.
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Jlc
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 14:46
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So it was 2 offences. The first seems sunk now if the SD wasn't made in a timely manner.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Typan
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 14:56
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 14:26) *
Not at all, a 6 month totting ban removes the points that triggered it, perfectly normal and not at all confusing. Those should both be MS90 not MS0, which is the correct licence endorsement code for failing to provide drivers details.





Sorry, I will rephrase, confusing to people who have never encountered this before obviously not for the veterans of this site wink.gif

Yes you are right sorry typo that I then copied and pasted, it is MS90

So what (or can) he base an appeal on ?




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The Rookie
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 14:58
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He can only appeal the second offence in my opinion, he may be able to convince a court to allow an out of time appeal for the first.

As for what he can base it on, well if we know why (or at least had the first clue) he didn't get the notices we could suggest a defence, possible explanations are lost in post, wrong address, dog ate them, thrown away by mistake or illiterate.....


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Typan
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 16:19
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 14:58) *
He can only appeal the second offence in my opinion, he may be able to convince a court to allow an out of time appeal for the first. As for what he can base it on, well if we know why (or at least had the first clue) he didn't get the notices we could suggest a defence, possible explanations are lost in post, wrong address, dog ate them, thrown away by mistake or illiterate.....


He said the first he knew was when he received a letter saying he had been given 6 points. He called the court and was given an appointment to come in and do a SD but before the date of that he got a letter saying because they were considering disqualification it was going to court, which was the 6th Feb and he missed it. He put it in his phone for the 16th instead of the 6th, he is bringing all the letters he has later.

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Jlc
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 16:47
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In hindsight he should have continued with the SD regardless. (And may have actually prevented the disqual from totting!)

A SD can still be attempted but they may not accept it unless he's extremely convincing. (Simply he was 'confused') It's normally 21 days from discovering the conviction before it gets more difficult.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Typan
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 18:50
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 16:47) *
In hindsight he should have continued with the SD regardless. (And may have actually prevented the disqual from totting!)

A SD can still be attempted but they may not accept it unless he's extremely convincing. (Simply he was 'confused') It's normally 21 days from discovering the conviction before it gets more difficult.


Thanks ,how long does it usually take for a decision re the suspension of the ban ?

Do they send out an appeal form ?
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Jlc
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 19:09
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Ball is completely in your court. Application needs to be made to the court.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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The Rookie
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 19:09
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If you perform a stat dec then the disqualification would be lifted straight away, but he can’t for either (and be automatically accepted) as he failed to do the SD for the first in 21 days and was well aware of the second case.

If he appeals (he needs to contact the court for permission to appeal first, if they refuse he can still progress but it takes longer) they can either suspend the ban pending the appeal or leave it in place, it’s their decision, though they will usually suspend it.

You’ve still given no suggestion as to why he didn’t get the request to name the driver, so no advice can be given on that. First step would be to contact whoever named him as driver to see what address they provided.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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southpaw82
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 19:43
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Criminal Procedure Rules, rule 34.2

QUOTE
(3) The appellant must serve with the appeal notice any application for the following, with reasons—

(c) the suspension of any disqualification imposed in the case, where the magistrates’ court or the Crown Court can order such a suspension pending appeal.


And

QUOTE
(4) Where both the magistrates’ court and the Crown Court can grant bail or suspend a disqualification pending appeal, an application must indicate by which court the appellant wants the application determined.


Not sure where the notion that permission to appeal is required came from.

This post has been edited by southpaw82: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 19:43


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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Typan
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 21:26
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 19:09) *
If you perform a stat dec then the disqualification would be lifted straight away, but he can’t for either (and be automatically accepted) as he failed to do the SD for the first in 21 days and was well aware of the second case.

If he appeals (he needs to contact the court for permission to appeal first, if they refuse he can still progress but it takes longer) they can either suspend the ban pending the appeal or leave it in place, it’s their decision, though they will usually suspend it.

You’ve still given no suggestion as to why he didn’t get the request to name the driver, so no advice can be given on that. First step would be to contact whoever named him as driver to see what address they provided.


The car is not registered in his name, he hires it from a company that provides vehicles for taxis, so I presume it went to them. He says he didn’t receive any letters until the one saying he had been given 6 points. He called up and they gave him a date to go in and do a SD but then he got the letter saying because of the chance of disqualification he had to go to court. Court date was 6th Feb
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The Rookie
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 22:03
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He’s going to have to be a lot more active.

What address did that leasing company give? Did it go through his company?

We can’t get these answers only he can, he really needs to find out what address was given to the police and by whom and if it was wrong, why it was wrong.

Bluntly he needs to get off his arse and not repeat the two cockups that have made his already bad position much worse.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Council PCN's
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Typan
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 14:50
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 22:03) *
He’s going to have to be a lot more active. What address did that leasing company give? Did it go through his company? We can’t get these answers only he can, he really needs to find out what address was given to the police and by whom and if it was wrong, why it was wrong. Bluntly he needs to get off his arse and not repeat the two cockups that have made his already bad position much worse.


The leasing company gave his address , letters eventually arrived but after he had already been awarded points.

I think he might be best going to a solicitor, how much about would this cost ?

I agree he does need to be more proactive but sometimes people go through circumstances that many do not understand and day to day life just becomes too hard to handle, thanks for all the help , much appreciated

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The Rookie
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 14:58
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Your assuming, and are almost certainly wrong, if they gave his address why didn’t he get the original requests, why did he not get the first summons? It’s almost certain the address was after changed by using the information from his licence once the points were applied by DVLA. We can’t work with guesses and assumptions especially when experience tells us they are almost certainly wrong.

He really needs to FIND OUT, he doesnt need a solicitor yet, a solicitor will need the same facts.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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Typan
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 15:28
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 14:58) *
Your assuming, and are almost certainly wrong, if they gave his address why didn’t he get the original requests, why did he not get the first summons? It’s almost certain the address was after changed by using the information from his licence once the points were applied by DVLA. We can’t work with guesses and assumptions especially when experience tells us they are almost certainly wrong. He really needs to FIND OUT, he doesnt need a solicitor yet, a solicitor will need the same facts.


Arrr ok I see thanks, I will get him to check

But how would DVLA know who he was if no one had given his information ?





This post has been edited by Typan: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 15:32
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BertB
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 15:37
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QUOTE (Typan @ Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 08:20) *
I agree I think the speeding must have been earlier , the address where the letters had gone is his house which he was renovating but when he got made redundant and had to work on the taxies he had to move in with his mum.

I have asked him to bring all the letters to me later so I can go through them so hopefully I will be able to clarify further some of the missing detail.


It would appear that the leasing/taxi firm (whichever) had given the address they had for him. You also said the letters eventually got to him. By what method?

Did he collect them from the house? Did he have mail forwarding in place?

What is the address on his driving licence? His house he is renovating or his mum's where he is living. If his mum's, how did the summons end up being in his possession, and where did the letter for the first conviction go to. There seems to be some holes in the story, which is why it is never helpful to be a third party relaying information. It appears that no paperwork was received until the convictions starting rolling in, which were received despite (as far as we know) no change in the living arrangements.

The relevance of all this is that to challenge the MS90 convictions he needs to show that the letters went to an address he had no access to, did not reside at, and therefore could not be reached at. However he contributed to this if he failed to update his home address with the taxi firm and/or leasing company or did not put mail forwarding in place.

I cannot see how he can make a stat dec for either conviction seeing as he made one for the first conviction and failed to show for the appointment, and was aware of the summons and court date for the second.

Although I am wondering how they banned him from driving in his absence, as we are told that courts do not like doing this as it could (and probably has in this instance) lead to driving while disqualified.

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The Rookie
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 15:42
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QUOTE (Typan @ Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 16:28) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 14:58) *
Your assuming, and are almost certainly wrong, if they gave his address why didn’t he get the original requests, why did he not get the first summons? It’s almost certain the address was after changed by using the information from his licence once the points were applied by DVLA. We can’t work with guesses and assumptions especially when experience tells us they are almost certainly wrong. He really needs to FIND OUT, he doesnt need a solicitor yet, a solicitor will need the same facts.


Arrr ok I see thanks, I will get him to check

But how would DVLA know who he was if no one had given his information ?

They had a name, possibly a licence number and DOB, they clearly used that to find him.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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Typan
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 15:44
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 15:42) *
QUOTE (Typan @ Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 16:28) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 14:58) *
Your assuming, and are almost certainly wrong, if they gave his address why didn’t he get the original requests, why did he not get the first summons? It’s almost certain the address was after changed by using the information from his licence once the points were applied by DVLA. We can’t work with guesses and assumptions especially when experience tells us they are almost certainly wrong. He really needs to FIND OUT, he doesnt need a solicitor yet, a solicitor will need the same facts.
Arrr ok I see thanks, I will get him to check But how would DVLA know who he was if no one had given his information ?
They had a name, possibly a licence number and DOB, they clearly used that to find him.


Thanks again

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Jlc
post Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 19:15
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QUOTE (BertB @ Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 15:37) *
Although I am wondering how they banned him from driving in his absence, as we are told that courts do not like doing this as it could (and probably has in this instance) lead to driving while disqualified.

The summons explicitly said - so the defendant should not be surprised.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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