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Typan
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 20:55
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My daughters boyfriend is a private hire driver with a settle car not registered in his name. In October last year he must have been caught on camera dropping someone at Manchester Airport, he was doing 70 when it had been restricted to 50. In November he received a letter saying because he didn’t give the information of who was driving he had been given 6 points. He called up the court to ask what was it about as he hadn’t had a letter and was told to do a statutory declaration and was given a date. Just before the date to do this he received a summons on referral for this month to attend a court where the speeding had happened.

The court date was yesterday and he forgot about it and did not attend, he was convinced it was 16th and only realised after my daughter told him to check (got the letter 3 mthis ago, I know, no excuse)

As soon as he realised he called the court and was told he had been disqualified for 6mths, prior to this his licence was clean.

I am presuming they doubled the initial 3 points to 6 then 6 for not informing them. The thing is that the keeper of the car (taxi firm) must have provided driver details otherwise how would they have got his address. He is totally distraught as he has never had any dealings with the courts so he was totally naive to what was going on.

He has not only lost his licence but also his job if he doesn’t get this sorted, he really doesn’t know what to do , so I’m hoping someone can offer some advice.

Thanks
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post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 20:55
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AntonyMMM
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 21:22
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So he never made the Statutory Declaration ?

It isn't clear what's happened, but is he certain this isn't two separate offences ? Exactly what offences were listed on the summons he received for the most recent one ?

This post has been edited by AntonyMMM: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 21:22
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Jlc
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 21:23
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Quite difficult to advise 3rd hand. Send three and four pence as they say...

But was the Statutory Declaration ever made? You need 12 points to 'tot'.

They don't increase points in 'spite' (a fixed penalty would be 3 points - there's possibly an argument to request a FP equivalent sentence if one was offered) and without evidence as to the driver they won't normally convict the underlying offence anyway. 70 in a 50 could attract 6 points but is harsh (guidance is 4 to 6). Failing to furnish is 6 points.

Is it possible 2 offences are in play here? He may even have a defence if the wrong address was given etc.

Missing court dates isn't going to do any favours as he cannot claim he was unaware. An appeal is possible though - were pleas ever entered?

This post has been edited by Jlc: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 21:28


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Typan
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 21:56
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Thanks Antony / JLC

he didn’t actually make a SD the appointment was to do it but the letter with the court date came before it.

The summons says :

a magistrate has decided your case should be referred to a full court hearing, reason re disqualification

Date of charge 13/10/17

On 24/10/ 17 failed to give information contrary to sec 172 (3) and schedule 2 to the road traffic offenders

You have been convicted of this offence

Your case was considered under single justice however owing to reasons given your case is listed for a full hearing

To attend for sentence and consideration of driving disqualification

He had previously done the driving course but he said that he wasn’t given points for that

This post has been edited by Typan: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 22:02
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Jlc
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 22:02
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I would suggest looking up the points on his licence - it looks like 2 offences to me. (Here - DVLA)

A 6 months disqual would only be for totting (12 points).

This post has been edited by Jlc: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 22:02


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Typan
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 22:13
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Would the 6 points not be for the driving 70 on the motorway, restricted to 50 at the time (3am) 3 given as a fixed penalty then doubled for not paying ?

He is going to check on DVLA but he is here at the minute and his licence is in his house . He only did the course in the summer so if he had points they wouldn’t have let him do it would they?

He hasn’t filled in or signed any paperwork relating to this he has only had conversations over the phone

This post has been edited by Typan: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 22:22
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Jlc
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 22:16
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So was a fixed penalty not paid? (We don't appear to have all of the information?)

They don't double - but court sentencing guidelines are followed which could end up in 6 points.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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BaggieBoy
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 22:58
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QUOTE (Typan @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 22:13) *
He only did the course in the summer so if he had points they wouldn’t have let him do it would they?

The number of points on a licence has no bearing on whether a course is offered or not, it's just a speed thing.
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Typan
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 23:09
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 22:16) *
So was a fixed penalty not paid? (We don't appear to have all of the information?)

They don't double - but court sentencing guidelines are followed which could end up in 6 points.


No fixed penalty was paid because he didn’t receive it. The car is registered to the taxi firm not him so the first he knew was when the court letter come .

I understand the taxi company are obligated to inform of who was driving the point I was trying to make was if they were informed already how can they charge him with not informing if that makes sense.
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southpaw82
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 23:13
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QUOTE (Typan @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 23:09) *
I understand the taxi company are obligated to inform of who was driving the point I was trying to make was if they were informed already how can they charge him with not informing if that makes sense.

Informed by the taxi firm pursuant to their obligation. Not informed by him pursuant to his obligation.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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Typan
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 23:27
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 23:13) *
QUOTE (Typan @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 23:09) *
I understand the taxi company are obligated to inform of who was driving the point I was trying to make was if they were informed already how can they charge him with not informing if that makes sense.

Informed by the taxi firm pursuant to their obligation. Not informed by him pursuant to his obligation.


Oh ok so they both need to respond although he didn’t get the first letter

Can they then find him guilty of speeding if he hasn’t pleaded or admitted it?

This post has been edited by Typan: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 23:29
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Logician
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 00:02
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QUOTE (Typan @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 23:27) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 23:13) *
QUOTE (Typan @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 23:09) *
I understand the taxi company are obligated to inform of who was driving the point I was trying to make was if they were informed already how can they charge him with not informing if that makes sense.
Informed by the taxi firm pursuant to their obligation. Not informed by him pursuant to his obligation.
Oh ok so they both need to respond although he didn’t get the first letter Can they then find him guilty of speeding if he hasn’t pleaded or admitted it?


They can if he is given a court date for that charge and failed to appear. The court would not normally disqualify him in his absence without giving him the opportunity to attend, somewhere along the line he may have been told to attend court for disqualification to be considered and failed to do so, but without him posting here direct and relying instead on your understanding of what happened, it is very difficult to advise.



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Typan
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 01:07
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QUOTE (Logician @ Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 00:02) *
QUOTE (Typan @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 23:27) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 23:13) *
QUOTE (Typan @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 23:09) *
I understand the taxi company are obligated to inform of who was driving the point I was trying to make was if they were informed already how can they charge him with not informing if that makes sense.
Informed by the taxi firm pursuant to their obligation. Not informed by him pursuant to his obligation.
Oh ok so they both need to respond although he didn’t get the first letter Can they then find him guilty of speeding if he hasn’t pleaded or admitted it?


They can if he is given a court date for that charge and failed to appear. The court would not normally disqualify him in his absence without giving him the opportunity to attend, somewhere along the line he may have been told to attend court for disqualification to be considered and failed to do so, but without him posting here direct and relying instead on your understanding of what happened, it is very difficult to advise.

Sorry if you read post #4 he was supposed to appear yesterday as they said they were considering disqualification.

For reasons I don’t want to go into he is unable to post himself, but thanks for those who have taken the time to respond.

Can anyone advise what he can do next and how does he appeal please
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Logician
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 02:07
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OK, missed that. Usually in these cases they charge both failing to identify the driver and the speeding, and I expect he has been convicted of both and given 6 points for each, and then disqualified as a totter.

He will now have to appeal to the Crown Court, he has 21 days to do so. He should ask the Magistrates' Court for an appeal form and complete it for an appeal against conviction and sentence. He should also ask the court to suspend his disqualification pending the appeal.



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BertB
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 07:14
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Looking at what little information, third hand accounts and guess work we have, the timelines would still indicate that this is two separate cases not linked at all.

QUOTE (Typan @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 20:55) *
My daughters boyfriend is a private hire driver with a settle car not registered in his name. In October last year he must have been caught on camera dropping someone at Manchester Airport, he was doing 70 when it had been restricted to 50. In November he received a letter saying because he didn’t give the information of who was driving he had been given 6 points. He called up the court to ask what was it about as he hadn’t had a letter and was told to do a statutory declaration and was given a date. Just before the date to do this he received a summons on referral for this month to attend a court where the speeding had happened.


Speeding in October, convicted of FtF in November and given 6 points, and now convicted some months later of the speeding charge? Given that there seems to be a record of missed appointments, ignored summons and all round confusion, unless the local CPS/Mags/SJs are extremely efficient the 6 points in November is likely for an earlier round of FTF, back in March/April time.

On this latest conviction. We could do with an actual date of when an appointment was made for the SD, and when for, as "just before the date to do this he received a summons". That appears to have been a summons on referral from an SJ for an earlier heard case, referred due to the OP (of sorts) already having 6 points. Also presuming this was a little while after November, but unless efficiency is name of the game round there, this seems unlikely to be linked to a speeding charge in October. Unless there is a gap between finding out about conviction in November and making the stat dec appointment?

OP, your daughters boyfriend needs to speak to his taxi firm and find out what address they put down on their responses for the driver. Reading through the rest of the thread, there is a comment that 'if the taxi firm named him, why would he need to do it'. This rings alarm bells that paperwork was received and dismissed as already being taken care of.

Just for clarity though, does he know that he was caught speeding 70 in a 50 at Manchester Airport (seems a knowledge based claim tbh) or is he just convinced that this is what it is all for?

Am I right in thinking that the possibility to do a stat dec on either of these is now gone?
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Typan
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 08:20
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QUOTE (Logician @ Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 02:07) *
OK, missed that. Usually in these cases they charge both failing to identify the driver and the speeding, and I expect he has been convicted of both and given 6 points for each, and then disqualified as a totter.

He will now have to appeal to the Crown Court, he has 21 days to do so. He should ask the Magistrates' Court for an appeal form and complete it for an appeal against conviction and sentence. He should also ask the court to suspend his disqualification pending the appeal.


Thanks that is extremely helpful he is going to do that today.

I agree I think the speeding must have been earlier , the address where the letters had gone is his house which he was renovating but when he got made redundant and had to work on the taxies he had to move in with his mum.

I have asked him to bring all the letters to me later so I can go through them so hopefully I will be able to clarify further some of the missing detail.

Thanks again for all the assistance 😊👍🏻

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Jlc
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 08:37
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I think there are two offences in play - has the driving licence been checked yet?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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The Rookie
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 12:53
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It does sound to me almost certainly like two separate offences.

The SD for the first one is now no longer an option due to his inaction.

An SD for the second isn't an option as he was aware of the case, he may be able to pursued the magistrates to re-open in the interests of justice but forgetting a court case isn't really anyone else's fault and unlikely to help his case, an appeal would have a chance of success, but he will actually have to get off his backside and do something this time.

If he has his own policy his renewal will be eye watering, I doubt his company will be that happy either.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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BertB
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 14:16
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Throw in that his "70 in a 50" attracted a supposedly harsh speeding penalty of 6 points, and that it appears he has never answered any requests for driver details and I'm going with 2 x 6 points for S.172 offences.

QUOTE (BertB @ Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 07:14) *
Just for clarity though, does he know that he was caught speeding 70 in a 50 at Manchester Airport (seems a knowledge based claim tbh) or is he just convinced that this is what it is all for?


With the possibility of a third on the way, depending on the answer to this question.
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Typan
post Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 14:22
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Thanks everyone he has now sent in an email asking for an appeal form and asked for the ban to be suspended pending the outcome.

He has been on the site and it says 0 points/ disqualification.

its says ;
23/08/17
MS0 Failure to give info etc
Penalty points 6
Fine £660

24/10/17
MS0 Failure to give info etc
Penalty points 0
Fine £660

TT99 totting up etc
period 6 mths

there are only two reference numbers

it says you currently have no penalty points /disqualified

Very confusing ?

This post has been edited by Typan: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 - 14:27
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