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Liverpool JLA Letter of Claim received
webster1
post Tue, 14 Nov 2017 - 23:58
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Hi, I was wondering if anyone can assist. I've had advice from the facebook Fight Your Private Parking Invoice Page but now I've received a Letter of Claim from BW Legal threatening to take me to the County Court for an alleged 'parking offence' stopping in a prohibited zone at JLA.
I've responded to all VCS letters, this has now been passed to BW Legal who are saying pay £160 to avoid us taking you to Court. Advice all the way has been no way will this get to Court, but here I am being threatened with County Court.
Any advice/assistance would be greatly appreciated. As you can imagine I'm worried about this and thinking should payment have been made when the first letter came through the door with the £60 fine.
Thanking you in advance!
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post Tue, 14 Nov 2017 - 23:58
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bama
post Fri, 17 Nov 2017 - 13:25
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+1

An LBC for a (putative) Byelaw matter should be v.interesting


--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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webster1
post Fri, 17 Nov 2017 - 22:19
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Hi, I'm just scanning the last letters now after a failed attempt last night. I received another letter today to the last one that I replied to that BW legal may not have seen before sending me the letter before claim. This letter worries me!! I've left my replies in work and didn't get chance to retrieve them today so Ii'll post the last couple of letters from BW and the NTK....hang fire (I'm honestly not as incompetent as I'm clearly making myself look on this site!!)
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webster1
post Sat, 18 Nov 2017 - 09:55
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Can anyone view the attachments I've put up, I'm not sure I've done it right and I can't see where there are? I'm very sorry i'm struggling with getting the documents up unsure.gif

This post has been edited by webster1: Sat, 18 Nov 2017 - 10:05
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ostell
post Sat, 18 Nov 2017 - 10:12
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Post your photos on a photo hosting site then post the link on here. THere is a guide in the stickies.

This post has been edited by ostell: Sat, 18 Nov 2017 - 10:13
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hexaflexagon
post Sat, 18 Nov 2017 - 10:16
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QUOTE (webster1 @ Sat, 18 Nov 2017 - 09:55) *
Can anyone view the attachments I've put up, I'm not sure I've done it right and I can't see where there are? I'm very sorry i'm struggling with getting the documents up unsure.gif



Or simply open a post, look immeditely underneath for the 'Attachment Editor' area (make sure it says you have sufficient space left to upload a picture) and navigate to the file with the Choose File button and then UPLOAD it.
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webster1
post Sat, 18 Nov 2017 - 10:32
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.......I'm sorry I know you must be rolling your eyes at me. Do you mean start a new post, cause I can't find anything that says attachment Editor on this post. I'm really sorry but the more I'm trying the more I seem to be getting no where with it. I'll have to get someone to help me with this a I'm getting more stressed with it than the actual threat of court at the min!! I'll have to do this tomorrow now once I've got some help! Thanks

This post has been edited by webster1: Sat, 18 Nov 2017 - 10:37
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Umkomaas
post Sat, 18 Nov 2017 - 11:14
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QUOTE
Do you mean start a new post, cause I can't find anything that says attachment Editor on this post.

No.

Just click on the button ‘Add Reply’ which is immediately below the last post on this thread. Below the box where you type your text you will find the ‘Attachment Editor’ (you may just have to scroll down the page a bit if you’re using a phone or a tablet to view in order to see it).
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cabbyman
post Sat, 18 Nov 2017 - 20:19
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I scan and use TinyPic, then copy and paste the [img] tag into a post.


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Cabbyman 8 PPCs 0
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webster1
post Mon, 20 Nov 2017 - 09:57
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I have uploaded the attachments! Could you let me know if you can view them. I have done this in Attachment Editor!
I need to send my reply off this week to the Letter Before Claim.
Thanks

This post has been edited by webster1: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 - 10:21
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Attached File(s)
Attached File  LJLA_CVS.pdf ( 835.36K ) Number of downloads: 96
 
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Umkomaas
post Mon, 20 Nov 2017 - 11:40
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Well if they believe that to be a formal ‘Letter Before Claim’ (although perhaps misleadingly titled ‘Letter of Claim’), they are required to provide you with a whole raft of information as a result of the new Pre-action Protocol (PaP). As a legal firm they should know of its requirements and it should not be an individual who is not legally qualified or advised to be pointing this out to them - as I’m sure you will be once you’ve read the requirements of the PaP.

https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure...debt-claims.pdf
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webster1
post Mon, 20 Nov 2017 - 11:59
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They have sent some forms I've just not been able to post everything up as I'm still struggling to sort it! There is a reply section indicating if I dispute the claim, Admit to the Claim and then a box to say I require further information. I'm sure that another member has said that it does comply with the Pre-action Protocol. I've had another letter, they must have rescieved my response from a previous letter, prior to them sending out the Letter of Claim, which I will just have to type up as i'll not get in on in time otherwise! I do apologise for this!


Another member stated "It appears they have sent the full banana. It includes the Annexe 1 information and reply forms so seems to be compliant with new PAP. The OP has kept up a dialogue with VCS pointing out bylaws apply and no keeper liability. They responded with the usual Elliott vs Loake guff and now the LoC. The LoC also says if payment or a response is not received, they are instructed to issue CC claim without further reference"



This post has been edited by webster1: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 - 12:01
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hexaflexagon
post Mon, 20 Nov 2017 - 12:47
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Assuming they have indeed sent ALL the stuff in the link to the PAP that Umkomaas mentioned in #30 then I'd be inclined to tick Box D and explain that the reasons for disputing the debt are

1. Bylaws are in existence at LJLA - as confirmed in written answers in the House of Lords and other correspondence from the Minister responsible (I have a copy should you ever need it)

2. Given the bylaws this is not a contractual matter. If anything it's a breach of trespass which should be prosecuted in a Magistrates Court and not the Civil Small Claims Court.

3. Notwithstanding 1 & 2 even if it was an alleged contractual matter the signs cannot possibly offer a contract since they are
a) Forbidding signs.
b) Incapable of being read and completely understood when driving past at the 30 mph (?) speed limit since the number and font size of the words make this impossible

4.... any other relevant points that others may come up with

What have you previously said in correspondence with VCS / BW legal? I don't think we've seen any of that.

As others have said, if this comes to court this will be a first, there is a fighting fund available and tickets are already being sold for the public gallery.

This post has been edited by hexaflexagon: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 - 16:36
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webster1
post Mon, 20 Nov 2017 - 13:04
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.....second letter received 16th Nov..

....We write in reference to the above matter and your correspondence dated 4.11.17.
Our Client's claim is for the Balance and is in relation to monies (and legal expenses) owed pursuant to the PCN.

The PCN contravention took place on the 17 March 2017 at Liverpool John Lennon Airport 92the Site" where the vehicle bearing the registration number **** *** (the Vehicle") stopped on a roadway where stopping is prohibited.

The prohibition was clearly detailed on the signs along the roadway and by stopping in a prohibited area, the vehicle has contravened the prohibition and therefore you are liable for the Balance.

The Site is privately owned and there is no public right of way. the Landowners of the Site are entitled to introduce Terms and Conditions at the Site, as the Landowners have unqualified private rights to determine who, and on what terms, motorist can access its land.

It is Our Client's position that the Byelaws are therefore arbitrary. Peel Holdings position as a private landowner permits such a right by regulating who, and on what terms, motorist can access its land.

In order to prevent further costs from being incurred, we would be grateful if you would contact us within 7 days from the date of this letter to pay the Balance.

In the event you are unable to pay the Balance in full, please contact our helpful team.

We look forward to your prompt payment upon return.

In all other correspondence it has been stated that there are byelaws etc (advice from the fb page). I will get everything posted up asap with responses.

This post has been edited by webster1: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 - 13:12
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hexaflexagon
post Mon, 20 Nov 2017 - 13:22
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Would you confirm (as spudandros seemed to imply in #10) that you have received all the PAP stuff umkomaas mentioned in #30.

Just confirm one way or the other. Yes or No.

If you have was the covering letter that enclosed them dated before or after the 16th November 2nd letter you mention?
If before then it's somewhat odd that they have sent you the 2nd letter given that they have effectively started a claim with the PAP. I'd take heart from that since they may be trying a last roll of the dice and hoping to frighten you into caving in.
Let's hope they are reading this and realise that this will be fought to the end.

Of course it's VCS's position that the bylaws are arbitrary - whatever that may mean. LJLA have said on a few occasions that the the bylaws are obsolete, that doesn't mean they are. The bylaws have never been rescinded by Liverpool Council which would be necessary for any new bylaws to come into. existence.

This post has been edited by hexaflexagon: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 - 16:41
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Jlc
post Mon, 20 Nov 2017 - 13:49
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QUOTE (webster1 @ Mon, 20 Nov 2017 - 13:04) *
The prohibition was clearly detailed on the signs along the roadway and by stopping in a prohibited area, the vehicle has contravened the prohibition and therefore you are liable for the Balance.

Note how they change from inanimate object to animate one without any explanation as to how the liability accrues?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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webster1
post Mon, 20 Nov 2017 - 13:53
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Yes I have received all the PaP info!



I received a letter from BW Legal dated the 27th October, which I replied to. Then the letter of claim came dated 9th Nov. The letter after this (which I have just posted) is dated 14th Nov . So I'm wondering if they have responded to my letter that I replied to from their letter on the 27th with the above letter that I've just posted and if it has kind of crossed over without them seeing my response that they've then just sent the Letter of Claim.

I do apologise for my long winded responses. I'm not in work until Wed when I can print off all my reply letters. Once I've done this I'll get them all copied and get someone to put it in a JPEG format so I can get it on here (I know I sound completely incompetent on this site, but honestly I'm not that bad!!!

This post has been edited by webster1: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 - 14:06
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unicorn47
post Mon, 20 Nov 2017 - 14:08
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You only need to fill in box "D" - I dispute the debt, and give the reasons why.

Box "I" - I need more info, and requesting all the paperwork they are relying on.

You have 30 days to fill in and send the form back.
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cabbyman
post Mon, 20 Nov 2017 - 16:14
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Nice of them to confirm it is a prohibition and, therefore, cannot possibly be contractual.


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Cabbyman 8 PPCs 0
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ManxRed
post Mon, 20 Nov 2017 - 17:00
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Massive popcorn order placed!


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Sometimes I use big words I don't understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis.
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webster1
post Mon, 20 Nov 2017 - 18:48
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QUOTE (ManxRed @ Mon, 20 Nov 2017 - 17:00) *
Massive popcorn order placed!


...... I would really rather not be the first one with this, with everyone scoffing their popcorn!!! wacko.gif

This post has been edited by webster1: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 - 18:50
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