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PCN - Correct parking Charge paid!, ANPR car park
Macapaca
post Tue, 10 Oct 2017 - 19:50
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The driver paid the correct fee of 50p to stay for up to 1 hour. The PCN notice correctly identified that the car was parked for less than half that time. The registration number was correctly entered and checked on the machine display before the Validate button was hit. The machine display confirmed that the fee had been paid. Unfortunately the pay machine did not issue a receipt. The company in question are just using photographic evIdence that the car was parked. They have not supplied any evidence that payment was not made. As the RK I appealed and asked for visibility of the payment machine log to show that the registration and payment was made. They have refused to supply that information.

So I am determined to fight this unjust charge of £100 when in good faith the correct parking fee of 50p was paid and met all the parking contractual requirements stated on the car park notices.

The initial appeal to the PPC has been rejected and I have now received a POPLA code. I would like advice on whether to submit a POPLA appeal or just ignore all letters except for a court case should it come to that. I am determined to fight this unjust PCN and will happily go to court to fight my case.

Any experienced and wise advice is welcome.

This post has been edited by Macapaca: Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 16:14
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post Tue, 10 Oct 2017 - 19:50
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Macapaca
post Wed, 18 Oct 2017 - 11:19
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Attached File  PCN_NtK_14Sept17.pdf ( 1.87MB ) Number of downloads: 28
QUOTE (cabbyman @ Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 13:03) *
IF your initial appeal is exactly as quoted above, appeal to POPLA as keeper.

Check through PoFA sched 4 para 8 and tick off ALL items where the NtK doesn't comply EXACTLY. Put together your appeal based on others on the forum and post on here for checking.


I attach a copy of the Notice to Keeper which I have checked against POFA schedule para 8 as suggested. Firstly the letter is not explicitly a formal NtK but it's content implies that it what it is. Several of the clauses in the PoFA do not appear to be complied with. For example, 8 (2) (a) is not covered explicitly and is just referred to by reference to the original PCN. Para 8 (2) (f) specifies that 28 days notice should be given but the NtK only covers 14 days! Para (g) requires that the discount offered should be mentioned but it is not explicitly in the NtK. The discount is only mentioned in the original PCN and in the appeal rejection letter which was issued after the NtK. Para 8 (7) requires the evidence to be supplied, but all they provide is a link to the entry and exit photos and nothing of the crucial evidence that payment was alledgedly not made. Para 8 (8) requires mention of the appeal process however the NtK doesn't not mention the POPLA appeal process.

Being very picky I could mention several other paras that the NtK doesn't comply with. I have just quoted what I believe to be the main issues.

I would appreciate some advice from the forum from anyone experienced in POPLA appeals on whether any of these points are likely to be taken seriously by POPLA? Is it worth building a case around these legislation shortfalls?

This post has been edited by Macapaca: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 - 14:22
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Macapaca
post Wed, 25 Oct 2017 - 21:44
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As RK I have submitted a POPLA appeal online within the 28 days stated. How long does the the PPC have to submit 'Operator Information & Evidence? I can't find any mention of a time limit on the POPLA website.
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 26 Oct 2017 - 11:19
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within 28 days i believe
Keep checking the site, you should have a notice telling you (online and email) when you can view their case to make your rebuttal.

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Macapaca
post Thu, 26 Oct 2017 - 12:11
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The following text is copied from the POPLA website when I sign in to track the appeal:
We have received your appeal and have requested the parking operator to provide information and evidence about your appeal. Once the operator sends us their evidence it will appear here. We will notify you when we receive this information and evidence so that you can provide your comments.

It doesn't state a time limit implying that it is open ended which seems odd given that the RK is given a limit of 28 days.
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cabbyman
post Thu, 26 Oct 2017 - 20:02
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What do you expect from a trade body that represents the interests of the industry?

Keep checking the POPLA portal on a daily basis. When the PPC's evidence is received, you only have 7 days, from receipt of that evidence by POPLA, to rebut any points they make. Unfortunately, POPLA have a habit of not informing you for 4 days!


--------------------
Cabbyman 8 PPCs 0
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 27 Oct 2017 - 09:51
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And, if you DONT get a copy of the evidence - they have had issues with teh site previously - you infgorm POPLA and then tell them when you DO get access.

ALso you really have 6 days, theyre pretty quick to work on the file .
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Macapaca
post Fri, 27 Oct 2017 - 17:27
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At which point in the POPLA appeal process does the parking company have to pay the £27 fee? Is it when they issue the POPLA code to the RK or when they submit their information & evidence? Given that there is only a 60% success rate through POPLA then the PPC has to decide whether to risk a further £27 for a 60% chance of winning. Of course the real odds depend on the individual case. I am just wondering how often the PPCs cut their losses by not proceeding with the POPLA appeal given that they have to pay the fee.

This post has been edited by Macapaca: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 - 17:27
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cabbyman
post Fri, 27 Oct 2017 - 17:55
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I think they pay it quite late in the process. I have had a number of appeals submitted to POPLA but the PPC electing not to contest.


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Cabbyman 8 PPCs 0
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 27 Oct 2017 - 23:35
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My 7nderstanding is they pay when the code is used.
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FightingFrog
post Sat, 28 Oct 2017 - 08:38
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These ANPR car parks MUST BE AVOIDED AT ALL COSTS!!

They are an absolute racketeering poison.
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cabbyman
post Sat, 28 Oct 2017 - 11:12
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How does one do that, pray? Particularly if one has no knowledge of such practises until one receives a missive from the parking company, 6 weeks before your words of wisdom.



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Cabbyman 8 PPCs 0
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FightingFrog
post Sat, 28 Oct 2017 - 15:43
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QUOTE (cabbyman @ Sat, 28 Oct 2017 - 12:12) *
How does one do that, pray? Particularly if one has no knowledge of such practises until one receives a missive from the parking company, 6 weeks before your words of wisdom.


Spread the word?
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Macapaca
post Mon, 6 Nov 2017 - 15:39
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As RK I have now received the operator's POPLA evidence for comment. Part of my evidence was that there was no signage on or adjacent to the pay machines with a phone number to ring given that the machinequipment display not issue a receipt even though payment was made as indicated on the pay machine display. In the latest evideo centre to POPLA PP have shown a new sign erected between the two pay machines! The photo shows that the sign is in pristine condition together with evidence of new concrete around the based of the sign! It has taken nearly three weeks to respond with their POPLA evidence during which time they have been erecting new signs! The photos clearly show that the photos have only been taken in the last three weeks given the colour and quantity of the foliage on the nearby trees! What a cynical attempt to influence POPLA.
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Jlc
post Mon, 6 Nov 2017 - 16:08
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Then you must refute this. But I'm not surprised.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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cabbyman
post Mon, 6 Nov 2017 - 16:13
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....And quickly. I believe you only get 7 days from when POPLA receive the PPC's evidence and you have probably already lost 4 days of that under their peculiar rules.


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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 6 Nov 2017 - 17:33
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Yes, you only get 7 days. Aim for 6

Simple bullet points. POint out that these signs are clearly new, and were clearly NOT taken at the time but later on. They show the operator AGREES the signage was insufficient and inadequate - they would not erect it otherwise. Your appeal must be upheld.
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Macapaca
post Mon, 6 Nov 2017 - 17:56
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I have been given 7 days to reply from today. It clearly states so in the email. The PPC evidence was only uploaded at midday today.
The PPC evidence has made a major issue out of having plenty signage. They have shown several photos of signs showing the T&C's and in each case circled the signs in red. However, these signs are only in one half of the car park and in August most of these were hidden or obscured by the trees/shrubs surrounding that half. On the half where the car was parked there are none of these signs and i have photographic evidence to prove it. So despite their claim that they have followed all the BPA guidelines for clear signage I think they are less than clear! Let's see what POPLA think.

I still maintain that the VRN was entered into the machine together with payment. So I demanded to see the payment logs. They previously refused to supply these when I requested to see them but have now included an extract in their POPLA evidence. Not surprisingly the VRN is not listed. They claim that the machine was working because several other cars are listed as having paid. However there were several people queuing to pay just after the driver and there are NO recorded entries for about half an hour afterwards which looks a bit suspicious.

I don't know how POPLA will see this evidence but as the driver entered the VRN and paid I will contest this all the way to court if necessary. There was no attempt by the driver or RK to deny that the car was parked intentionally for the period stated and that the driver was aware that it was a camera enforced car park.

This post has been edited by Macapaca: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 - 17:59
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ostell
post Mon, 6 Nov 2017 - 19:41
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So you refute all the evidence that you do not agree with. If you have those phots then add them to the POLA notice.
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 6 Nov 2017 - 20:56
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The payment logs - is it accompanied by a statement of truth verifying that this is ALL the logs? Entirely com0lete? Or is it just a random listing that isn’t verifiable in anyway.

Refer popla to your photos that show THEIR photos are not representative.
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Macapaca
post Mon, 6 Nov 2017 - 21:40
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Mon, 6 Nov 2017 - 20:56) *
The payment logs - is it accompanied by a statement of truth verifying that this is ALL the logs? Entirely com0lete? Or is it just a random listing that isn’t verifiable in anyway.

Refer popla to your photos that show THEIR photos are not representative.

No the logs are not accompanied by a statement verifying that this is ALL the logs. All the evidence states is as follows: "Log showing no payment for the Appellant’s full and correct vehicle registration"

There is no doubt that the VRN was entered into the machine and the machine progressed to the payment step. Therefore the logs have either been redacted or the system was not working!
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