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PCN - Correct parking Charge paid!, ANPR car park
Macapaca
post Tue, 10 Oct 2017 - 19:50
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The driver paid the correct fee of 50p to stay for up to 1 hour. The PCN notice correctly identified that the car was parked for less than half that time. The registration number was correctly entered and checked on the machine display before the Validate button was hit. The machine display confirmed that the fee had been paid. Unfortunately the pay machine did not issue a receipt. The company in question are just using photographic evIdence that the car was parked. They have not supplied any evidence that payment was not made. As the RK I appealed and asked for visibility of the payment machine log to show that the registration and payment was made. They have refused to supply that information.

So I am determined to fight this unjust charge of £100 when in good faith the correct parking fee of 50p was paid and met all the parking contractual requirements stated on the car park notices.

The initial appeal to the PPC has been rejected and I have now received a POPLA code. I would like advice on whether to submit a POPLA appeal or just ignore all letters except for a court case should it come to that. I am determined to fight this unjust PCN and will happily go to court to fight my case.

Any experienced and wise advice is welcome.

This post has been edited by Macapaca: Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 16:14
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post Tue, 10 Oct 2017 - 19:50
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cabbyman
post Tue, 10 Oct 2017 - 20:02
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Which PPC?

What, verbatim, was your initial appeal?

EDIT your post to avoid identifying the driver. refer only to 'the driver.' This may be crucial.


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Macapaca
post Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 09:29
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QUOTE (cabbyman @ Tue, 10 Oct 2017 - 21:02) *
Which PPC?

What, verbatim, was your initial appeal?

EDIT your post to avoid identifying the driver. refer only to 'the driver.' This may be crucial.

The PPC was Premier Park.

The initial appeal is as follows:
Without prejudice, I can confirm that the registration number of the vehicle was entered into the pay machine together with the required fee of 50p for one hour parking. Your reference Parking Charge Notice clearly shows that the duration was xx minutes i.e. less than the one hour paid for. As you have supplied details of the vehicle and identified the duration of xx minutes you should also have a record that the vehicle registration was entered and correct payment made, assuming that the equipment was functioning correctly at the time. This information was not supplied in your letter dated Day/Month 2017.
The reason you cited for issuing the PCN was Parking session expired or Unpaid. The PCN clearly states that the session was xx minutes and so had not expired the one hour paid for.
As the vehicle registration was entered into the machine and the correct fee paid I will not be paying a further £100.


I have edited the OP to refer to the driver.

This post has been edited by Macapaca: Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 16:18
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Jlc
post Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 10:36
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QUOTE (Macapaca @ Tue, 10 Oct 2017 - 20:50) *
Unfortunately the pay machine did not issue a receipt.

Malfunctioning meters are not unusual. For example here and here.

BUT the PPC won't admit any fault and POPLA will likely side with the operator that the 'PCN was correctly issue'. (i.e. the payment log has no corresponding entry) Probably saying its the motorist's responsibility to ensure payment is accepted etc. and the lack of ticket should have resulted in further actions - did the signs have a number to ring for example?

So, a court claim may well be the outcome. A POPLA 'loss' isn't binding but they'll be sure to wave it around.

The alternative could be a robust letter to them why you won't be paying their unreasonable demands - hopefully they'll put it in the 'too hard' pile.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 10:40


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Macapaca
post Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 11:00
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 11:36) *
QUOTE (Macapaca @ Tue, 10 Oct 2017 - 20:50) *
Unfortunately the pay machine did not issue a receipt.

Malfunctioning meters are not unusual. For example here and here.

BUT the PPC won't admit any fault and POPLA will likely side with the operator that the 'PCN was correctly issue'. (i.e. the payment log has no corresponding entry) Probably saying its the motorist's responsibility to ensure payment is accepted etc. and the lack of ticket should have resulted in further actions - did the signs have a number to ring for example?

So, a court claim may well be the outcome. A POPLA 'loss' isn't binding but they'll be sure to wave it around.

The alternative could be a robust letter to them why you won't be paying their unreasonable demands - hopefully they'll put it in the 'too hard' pile.

There is no doubt that the coin went into the machine and that the registration number was entered. So surely the PPC needs to provide evidence that the fee was not paid? There must be a log that the 50p was entered into the machine at the stated time if the payment machine was functioning correctly. I agree that there should be an us on the driver to ensure payment was accepted which it was. The only problem is that the machine did not issue a receipt but that is surely the responsibility of the PPC?
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ManxRed
post Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 11:39
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They'll try and argue (if a sign exists to that effect) that the driver did not call the emergency number.

Your appeal should contain the term 'frustration of contract' (can be googled). Essentially the fault present in their equipment prevented the driver from complying with the terms and conditions (i.e. displaying a ticket).

Not sure how far that'll go with POPLA, but should be mileage in any court claim defence, although they will try and argue that the driver could have mitigated this by calling any emergency number if one was displayed. Might be worth finding out if one was.

This post has been edited by ManxRed: Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 11:40


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Sometimes I use big words I don't understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis.
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Macapaca
post Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 11:50
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QUOTE (ManxRed @ Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 12:39) *
They'll try and argue (if a sign exists to that effect) that the driver did not call the emergency number.

Your appeal should contain the term 'frustration of contract' (can be googled). Essentially the fault present in their equipment prevented the driver from complying with the terms and conditions (i.e. displaying a ticket).

Not sure how far that'll go with POPLA, but should be mileage in any court claim defence, although they will try and argue that the driver could have mitigated this by calling any emergency number if one was displayed. Might be worth finding out if one was.

There was no telephone number on the payment machine. There was a telephone number in small print on the main car park display which was away from the pay machine. I only found this after I had received the PCN and went back to explore the signs and small print. It wasn't stated as an emergency number. It was just part of the name and address of the company that manages the car park.

Thanks for your advice on 'frustration of contract'. That could be useful!
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ManxRed
post Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 11:52
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In that case, make sure you state that (a photo might be useful as backup) on the POPLA appeal. Don't mention the number on the main sign - just state that there was no notice on the pay machine or anywhere else nearby that informed you of what to do in the event of a malfunction of the machine.

Also mention that you requested the payment logs for the machine and they refused. Doesn't paint them in a good light.

This post has been edited by ManxRed: Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 11:56


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Sometimes I use big words I don't understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis.
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cabbyman
post Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 12:03
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IF your initial appeal is exactly as quoted above, appeal to POPLA as keeper.

Check through PoFA sched 4 para 8 and tick off ALL items where the NtK doesn't comply EXACTLY. Put together your appeal based on others on the forum and post on here for checking.


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Jlc
post Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 12:36
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The usual line is that the log will show other payments and therefore there was no 'malfunction'. But the elephant in the room is that of course if it wasn't logged then a log won't show it! They can prove the log entry is not there (which in their minds is the say as you not paying at all).

As I already noted, there are documented situations were single payments are 'lost' on the log. Which is why any ticket (or lack thereof) is important. If you had a ticket then that would trump the missing entry. Basically they are calling you a liar and never made a payment and are now saying you did after getting caught. (Indeed, the evidence appears indistinguishable)

QUOTE (Macapaca @ Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 12:00) *
There is no doubt that the coin went into the machine and that the registration number was entered. So surely the PPC needs to provide evidence that the fee was not paid? There must be a log that the 50p was entered into the machine at the stated time if the payment machine was functioning correctly. I agree that there should be an us on the driver to ensure payment was accepted which it was. The only problem is that the machine did not issue a receipt but that is surely the responsibility of the PPC?

How do you prove a negative? If there's a reconciliation between tickets issued and payments there might be a 50p discrepancy - but they aren't going to help you.

POPLA may well form the view when the ticket wasn't issued you could not assume the transaction was confirmed - but if there was no instructions then what could you do?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Macapaca
post Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 13:29
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 13:36) *
The usual line is that the log will show other payments and therefore there was no 'malfunction'. But the elephant in the room is that of course if it wasn't logged then a log won't show it! They can prove the log entry is not there (which in their minds is the say as you not paying at all).

As I already noted, there are documented situations were single payments are 'lost' on the log. Which is why any ticket (or lack thereof) is important. If you had a ticket then that would trump the missing entry. Basically they are calling you a liar and never made a payment and are now saying you did after getting caught. (Indeed, the evidence appears indistinguishable)

QUOTE (Macapaca @ Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 12:00) *
There is no doubt that the coin went into the machine and that the registration number was entered. So surely the PPC needs to provide evidence that the fee was not paid? There must be a log that the 50p was entered into the machine at the stated time if the payment machine was functioning correctly. I agree that there should be an us on the driver to ensure payment was accepted which it was. The only problem is that the machine did not issue a receipt but that is surely the responsibility of the PPC?

How do you prove a negative? If there's a reconciliation between tickets issued and payments there might be a 50p discrepancy - but they aren't going to help you.

POPLA may well form the view when the ticket wasn't issued you could not assume the transaction was confirmed - but if there was no instructions then what could you do?

In my view the transaction was confirmed on the pay machine display which showed the registration entered and the payment showing 'paid'. The lack of a receipt seemed odd but there is nothing in the T&C's about having one to display in the car etc.

I think there should be an onus on the PPC to prove that a payment wasn't made. I asked to see the logs but they have refused to do so. What are they hiding or not willing to reveal?
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Macapaca
post Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 16:23
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QUOTE (ManxRed @ Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 12:39) *
They'll try and argue (if a sign exists to that effect) that the driver did not call the emergency number.

Your appeal should contain the term 'frustration of contract' (can be googled). Essentially the fault present in their equipment prevented the driver from complying with the terms and conditions (i.e. displaying a ticket).

Not sure how far that'll go with POPLA, but should be mileage in any court claim defence, although they will try and argue that the driver could have mitigated this by calling any emergency number if one was displayed. Might be worth finding out if one was.

The T&C's do not state that a ticket has to be displayed! The system is all electronic i.e. ANPR + Vehicle Reg entered into the pay machine + money. All this was done. However the PCN only supplies photos of the car entering and leaving the car park.
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cabbyman
post Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 17:00
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QUOTE (cabbyman @ Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 13:03) *
IF your initial appeal is exactly as quoted above, appeal to POPLA as keeper.

Check through PoFA sched 4 para 8 and tick off ALL items where the NtK doesn't comply EXACTLY. Put together your appeal based on others on the forum and post on here for checking.



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Macapaca
post Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 18:47
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QUOTE (cabbyman @ Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 18:00) *
QUOTE (cabbyman @ Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 13:03) *
IF your initial appeal is exactly as quoted above, appeal to POPLA as keeper.

Check through PoFA sched 4 para 8 and tick off ALL items where the NtK doesn't comply EXACTLY. Put together your appeal based on others on the forum and post on here for checking.


Yes the initial appeal was exactly as quoted, apart from details xx'd out just in case the applicable PPC reads these forums.
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Macapaca
post Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 08:50
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I have already asked the PPC to supply the pay machine logs which include details about the car for which I am the RK. They have so far refused to provide this key information that would prove thatci used the machine and payment entered. I have just picked up a tip frof anothe thread on this forum that in my appeal to POPLA I should state that I am entitled to ask for and receive this information under the Data Protection Act 1998. It appears that I can also ask to see the details of the logic applied to any automated decisions. This probably applies here because the system will need to match up the ANPR camera data with the payment machine data. I also intend to ask for visibility of maintenance and software validation records.

I hope full that this will confirm that I did try to use the machine to pay. Also as a minimum it will hopefully move the case into the 'too hard' file!
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Macapaca
post Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 09:35
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Whilst the PPC has the name and address of the RK, presumably by paying the DVLA, can they pass it on to a third party debt collection agency or would that constitute a breach of the Data Protection Act?
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ostell
post Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 09:50
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As the debt collection company are acting as the agents of the PPC then that is allowed. If the PPC sell the debt to another company then that is a fail.
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Macapaca
post Mon, 16 Oct 2017 - 08:06
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QUOTE (ostell @ Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 10:50) *
As the debt collection company are acting as the agents of the PPC then that is allowed. If the PPC sell the debt to another company then that is a fail.

Am I correct in thinking there is legally only debt after a successful court appealing? So if I get hassled by a DCA cannot I tell them to go and whistle until they come back with a successful court appeal?
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Jlc
post Mon, 16 Oct 2017 - 08:17
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Yes, but it's a 'claim' and not an appeal. (And you get the chance to defend)


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 16 Oct 2017 - 14:04
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Ignore debt collectors entirely. We don’t need to know anything about them at all.
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