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Another Camrose Ave Harrow Bus Gate violation
staygulf
post Thu, 8 Jun 2023 - 17:33
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I’ve never been to Harrow before so was unfamiliar with the road layout but I was travelling along Camrose Ave towards Harrow when I was caught on camera allegedly contravening the (seemingly) famous bus gate at the junction with Dale Ave.

I was awaiting the decision from the recent case posted by gtahhh which was successfully argued by MMV Redux. However, as I seem to have been travelling in the opposite direction I’m not sure the same arguments would apply, not least because it seems the case was won due to failures in the LA’s evidence and I haven’t sent in any representations yet.

I was travelling behind a learner who indicated that he was turning right. I assumed that he was turning into St Bride’s Ave and as he pulled over I continued on his inside. I was surprised as he didn’t turn but continued moving forward aside me and I suddenly found myself at a stop sign. It was only then that I realised that I was in what I thought was a bus lane as I caught a glimpse of the blue sign.

In my neck of the woods most width restrictions for buses have the motorist travelling on the nearside with the bus diverting to the centre of the road. There was no prewarning of the “bus gate” only a width restriction warning sign a few hundred yards before the junction, although I’m aware from previous posts that a prewarning isn’t required.

My questions are:-

1 Does the TMO v S36 sign argument still fly? It is quite clear that I must have breached the sign as that is the only sign signifying the bus gate. I’m not sure the painted road marking “Bus Gate” has any legal effect as regards the alleged offence.

2 The photographs on Harrow’s website show me stopped at the white lines and then crossing them. They do not show the face of the s36 blue signs only the backs of them. Does the LA need to prove that the sign was breached or is this a ploy on their part to reinforce their assertion that this is a TMO violation not a sign violation?

3 Is there anything on the PCN which does not conform to the regulations?

4 What should my line of defence be in forming my representations? Should it be that the penalty charge exceeds the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case because they are prevented by law in charging it?

The excellent advice on here has seen me benefit from a number of good arguments (including going through Bank junction with the help of pastmybest) so I’m hoping I get lucky again.

Help gratefully received.

https://1drv.ms/i/s!AgBjZaEfjV0RsgOjZ9l...ipLQVB?e=nb3pUe

https://1drv.ms/i/s!AgBjZaEfjV0RsgTL1QW...Ngasng?e=Y5pRDZ

https://1drv.ms/i/s!AgBjZaEfjV0RsgF96P-...aP-hNZ?e=nDChmb

https://1drv.ms/i/s!AgBjZaEfjV0RsgIfeLP...tbAO7I?e=lCzy31

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post Thu, 8 Jun 2023 - 17:33
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cp8759
post Sat, 8 Jul 2023 - 12:58
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QUOTE (staygulf @ Sat, 8 Jul 2023 - 13:49) *
As expected, I have received a notice of rejection of my representations.

You need to post this on ftla please.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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staygulf
post Sat, 8 Jul 2023 - 13:15
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 8 Jul 2023 - 13:58) *
QUOTE (staygulf @ Sat, 8 Jul 2023 - 13:49) *
As expected, I have received a notice of rejection of my representations.

You need to post this on ftla please.


Tried copying it over but the links don't work
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MMV Redux
post Sat, 8 Jul 2023 - 18:41
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OP--I have PM'ed you.

Mick
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Schofeldt
post Sat, 8 Jul 2023 - 19:37
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QUOTE (staygulf @ Fri, 16 Jun 2023 - 20:48) *
QUOTE (Schofeldt @ Tue, 13 Jun 2023 - 07:54) *
Got your PM.

1. PCN does arguably conflate the two periods of payment and making representations but this is not having much success at the tribunal.

2. A long shot: the TWOC ground arguably fetters to theft.

Sorry, not much help really.


Can you please expand on this. How does it relate to my case?

It states if the car had been stolen. There are other circumstances in which a car may be taken e.g. by a family member without permission.


--------------------
People, we come and go Memories, they ebb and flow. When we fill our lives with emptiness This does not create true happiness. As this is the Dance of Life.

People, we can be kind True love is hard to find. When we fill our lives with emptiness This does not create true happiness. As this is the Dance of Life.

Animals, we kill to eat For many, it’s just a treat. When we fill our lives with arrogance We create a huge imbalance. As this is the Dance of Life.

Our Earth is our Heavenly home God-given to freely roam. When we fill our lives with arrogance We create a huge imbalance As this is the Dance of Life.

One day, we will all be judged This simple truth cannot be fudged. When we carry on so blindly We do not act all so kindly. As this is the Dance of Life.

As Above, and so Below A simple truth to help us grow. When we put aside our egotism We will really find altruism. As this is the Dance of Life.

The Divine lives in all things Manifested in music’s rings. The planets are a testament To the everlasting firmament. As this is the Dance of Life.


It's all in the wrist.
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cp8759
post Sat, 8 Jul 2023 - 22:37
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.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Sat, 8 Jul 2023 - 22:42


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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MMV Redux
post Thu, 17 Aug 2023 - 08:13
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Outcome

2230339702 (Extract)

The Authority's case is that the Appellant's vehicle used a route restricted to certain vehicles (local buses and cycles only) when in Camrose Avenue on 14 May 2023 at 15.46.

The Appellant denies the contravention and through his representative has advanced a number of points.

I have considered the evidence and I find that this PCN cannot be upheld for the following reason:

First, I am not satisfied that the Authority has proved the signage at this location.

Second, the library photographs produced in the Map/Site evidence at 'J' in the evidence tree are undated, and they do not show any sign plate(s) in between the bus gate and the vehicular route.

Third, in the CCTV footage the back of two circular sign plates can be seen between the two routes. There is no evidence in relation to what these signs are.

Further, the photographs on the Notice of Rejection do not show the signage of which only the back can be seen in the CCTV footage.

In light of this finding I am not required to resolve any other issues between the parties.

The appeal is allowed.

-------------------------

Mick

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Schofeldt
post Thu, 17 Aug 2023 - 08:37
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Excellent. Another council who cannot be bothered to take contemporary photos. Well done Mick and OP for staying the course.

Costs?

https://1drv.ms/i/s!AgBjZaEfjV0RskBVPJ8...Wl8FQW?e=qHEvSU

https://1drv.ms/i/s!AgBjZaEfjV0RskFjIhX...7LKL2_?e=RJHfoz

This is BS. bs.gif Comments re TMO and sufficient evidence.

This post has been edited by Schofeldt: Thu, 17 Aug 2023 - 09:52


--------------------
People, we come and go Memories, they ebb and flow. When we fill our lives with emptiness This does not create true happiness. As this is the Dance of Life.

People, we can be kind True love is hard to find. When we fill our lives with emptiness This does not create true happiness. As this is the Dance of Life.

Animals, we kill to eat For many, it’s just a treat. When we fill our lives with arrogance We create a huge imbalance. As this is the Dance of Life.

Our Earth is our Heavenly home God-given to freely roam. When we fill our lives with arrogance We create a huge imbalance As this is the Dance of Life.

One day, we will all be judged This simple truth cannot be fudged. When we carry on so blindly We do not act all so kindly. As this is the Dance of Life.

As Above, and so Below A simple truth to help us grow. When we put aside our egotism We will really find altruism. As this is the Dance of Life.

The Divine lives in all things Manifested in music’s rings. The planets are a testament To the everlasting firmament. As this is the Dance of Life.


It's all in the wrist.
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Incandescent
post Thu, 17 Aug 2023 - 10:31
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I am still amazed this case was won, I have to say !
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staygulf
post Thu, 17 Aug 2023 - 18:36
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Thu, 17 Aug 2023 - 11:31) *
I am still amazed this case was won, I have to say !


Why so? I had every faith in MMV Redux particularly as he had won a similar case a few months previously for the same location.

The telephone appeal went on for 32 minutes at which point the adjudicator clearly had another case to move on to and said he would give his decision within 7 days. At that point I imagined that we had lost, but MMV Redux's view was that he felt sure that on rereading the evidence we supplied he would come around. He was right. The decision was received at 1am, 15 hours after the hearing.
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Schofeldt
post Thu, 17 Aug 2023 - 20:58
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QUOTE (staygulf @ Thu, 17 Aug 2023 - 19:36) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Thu, 17 Aug 2023 - 11:31) *
I am still amazed this case was won, I have to say !


Why so? I had every faith in MMV Redux particularly as he had won a similar case a few months previously for the same location.

The telephone appeal went on for 32 minutes at which point the adjudicator clearly had another case to move on to and said he would give his decision within 7 days. At that point I imagined that we had lost, but MMV Redux's view was that he felt sure that on rereading the evidence we supplied he would come around. He was right. The decision was received at 1am, 15 hours after the hearing.

The decisions always arrive at that time. Mr Teper is a hawk on signage and photos. He was probably very busy and wondered about Section 36 arguments. Ms Pearce would have probably done it on the day? Basically, in one single phrase, they did not prove their case.

I have the greatest respect for all of them. The adjudicators I mean.

This post has been edited by Schofeldt: Thu, 17 Aug 2023 - 21:24


--------------------
People, we come and go Memories, they ebb and flow. When we fill our lives with emptiness This does not create true happiness. As this is the Dance of Life.

People, we can be kind True love is hard to find. When we fill our lives with emptiness This does not create true happiness. As this is the Dance of Life.

Animals, we kill to eat For many, it’s just a treat. When we fill our lives with arrogance We create a huge imbalance. As this is the Dance of Life.

Our Earth is our Heavenly home God-given to freely roam. When we fill our lives with arrogance We create a huge imbalance As this is the Dance of Life.

One day, we will all be judged This simple truth cannot be fudged. When we carry on so blindly We do not act all so kindly. As this is the Dance of Life.

As Above, and so Below A simple truth to help us grow. When we put aside our egotism We will really find altruism. As this is the Dance of Life.

The Divine lives in all things Manifested in music’s rings. The planets are a testament To the everlasting firmament. As this is the Dance of Life.


It's all in the wrist.
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modi
post Wed, 23 Aug 2023 - 12:17
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Hi MMV Redux

Well Done and great work.

I need your help, same case and appeal due on 30/08/2023

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=151151


I will appreciate it if you can help me to prepare the appeal.


Best regards
M
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Schofeldt
post Wed, 23 Aug 2023 - 15:06
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Member No.: 116,298



QUOTE (modi @ Wed, 23 Aug 2023 - 13:17) *
Hi MMV Redux

Well Done and great work.

I need your help, same case and appeal due on 30/08/2023

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=151151


I will appreciate it if you can help me to prepare the appeal.


Best regards
M


You need to PM him. I will email him personally.


--------------------
People, we come and go Memories, they ebb and flow. When we fill our lives with emptiness This does not create true happiness. As this is the Dance of Life.

People, we can be kind True love is hard to find. When we fill our lives with emptiness This does not create true happiness. As this is the Dance of Life.

Animals, we kill to eat For many, it’s just a treat. When we fill our lives with arrogance We create a huge imbalance. As this is the Dance of Life.

Our Earth is our Heavenly home God-given to freely roam. When we fill our lives with arrogance We create a huge imbalance As this is the Dance of Life.

One day, we will all be judged This simple truth cannot be fudged. When we carry on so blindly We do not act all so kindly. As this is the Dance of Life.

As Above, and so Below A simple truth to help us grow. When we put aside our egotism We will really find altruism. As this is the Dance of Life.

The Divine lives in all things Manifested in music’s rings. The planets are a testament To the everlasting firmament. As this is the Dance of Life.


It's all in the wrist.
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MMV Redux
post Wed, 23 Aug 2023 - 16:40
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I have PM'ed Modi.

Mick
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