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PCN received for unauthorised parking. First steps?
moneysavingexper...
post Thu, 13 Jun 2019 - 12:06
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Hi all,

Someone recently received a notification from zipcar (Avis) about a PCN issued to them regarding an unauthorised vehicle parked in a private parking while this person was hiring it.

The case is slighlty similar to this one: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=121300

This person is at the moment at the stage of waiting for Euro Car Parks to send the PCN to them as the registered keeper (since zipcar gave them the details as the car was hired from them).

So here's the story: on that date the car was driven to the Ruislip Lido, where there are two car parks. At the time it was quite confusing what car park to go to as they both share the actual same space. The car should have driven to the council's pay & display car park, but because of confusing signs, it ended up parking in the restaurant's guests parking. Without realising this, the council's payment machine was used to get a ticket for the day, which cost £5. The keepers went about their business in the lido and eventually left, without realising they had done anything wrong.

Now a PCN has been issued for £85 (£50 if paid early), and unsure how to proceed. The signing is confusing as otherwise they wouldn't have bothered buying the ticket from the council pay machine, and obviously this is done deliberately to get people into parking in the wrong place and get a fine. On the other hand, it's unclear how much evidence could be provided to prove that.

Do you think an appeal using the "one size fits all" template from the newbies post in moneysavingexperts should be used in first instance? If the appeal gets rejected and ends up in POPLA, what do you reckon are the chances of winning? Is there anything on the PCN (attached) that could be used for it not being POFA compliant? Assuming the PCN sent to the keeper will be very similar

Find attached the PCN sent to zipcar (redacted), and also some photos found about the signs and layout of the parking, as they both share the same entrance and space.

Many thanks in advance.





This post has been edited by moneysavingexpertmel: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 - 14:58
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post Thu, 13 Jun 2019 - 12:06
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ostell
post Thu, 13 Jun 2019 - 14:20
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Edit that post so that the identity of the driver cannot be inferred. Use " the driver ....."etc.

Have a read of POFA paragraph 14. I'm a bit confused about who hired what and by whom, unless zipcar = Avis.

You are not the registered keeper, that would be Avis, you are the keeper/hirer. You wait for the notice to keeper/hirer to arrive in your own name. With it should be copies of the hire agreement and the original PCN. Invariably they do not send those documents and hence fail to comply with 14 (2) (a) and cannot transfer liability from the (unknown) driver to the hirer.

You send your appeal mentioning the failure so that it arrives on day 19 after the date on your letter. This is so they can't correct their failure and reissue within the 21 days required. You point out that the can't hold you, the hirer/keeper, liable and there is no legal obligation to name the driver and you will not be doing so.

There is also the fact that the sign us prohibiting in that parking us only offered to customers and therefore no parking contract is offered to non customers. No contract means there can be no breach and no charge. Save that for later.

This post has been edited by ostell: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 - 14:24
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moneysavingexper...
post Thu, 13 Jun 2019 - 15:27
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Amended, thanks for the quik reply. It looks like those documents have been requested to zipcar(avis) on the original PCN, but hopefully they will forget to post them. If that were not the case I'd come back and ask for more advice.
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ostell
post Thu, 13 Jun 2019 - 16:59
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I am led to believe that there is an understanding between the BPA ( and IPC ?) and BVRLA in that the rental companies don't have to supply the documents, just the names. PE pretend they have the docs to hand but still don't send them. So the chances of not receiving the required docs are high.
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moneysavingexper...
post Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 16:27
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Thanks, the keeper will wait and see what happens. In the meantime the keeper has phoned the business to try and get them to contact ECP to waive the invoice, but has been told there is nothing they can do about it which is not true as far as I am concerned, and considering leaving some 1 star reviews on tripadvisor and google regarding this matter to see if it kicks off some action from them.
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Glacier2
post Sat, 15 Jun 2019 - 22:33
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It is often a waste of time phoning.

You have a cast iron defence, so I would run with that rather than getting bogged down in phonecalls and petty retribution.
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 07:35
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Oh no, letting the busines know - and the public they rely on to survive - isnt a bad shout.

ASk the business why they signed a contract they have no control over, and why you, as a member of the public, shoudl be punished for their stupidity?
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moneysavingexper...
post Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 20:57
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Hi,

The reissued Parking Charge Notice has come through the letterbox of the keeper. It's actually an exact copy of the original except for the address and the dates.

As was mentioned in this thread, the Parking Charge Notice comes with no supporting documents: no hiring agreement between the keeper and the car hiring company, and no legal document mentioning liability shifts between the car hiring company and the keeper.

Shall the keeper now proceed with an appeal online through their website on day 19 after having received the parking charge notice? The PCN states that appeals must be made before 28 days of the date given, so the keeper does wonder if it's best to appeal after day 21 rather than on day 19, to ensure they won't be sending any other supporting documents? In any case, this is the text the keeper was planning on sending to them, based on a template.

QUOTE
Dear Sir,

Parking Charge Notice [0123456789]: Vehicle Registration [AA11ABC]

I refer to the above-detailed Parking Charge Notice (“PCN”) issued to me by Euro Car Parks Limited (“ECPL”) as a Notice to Keeper. I confirm that as the hirer of this vehicle, I am its keeper for the purpose of the corresponding definition under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (“POFA”) and I write to formally challenge the validity of this PCN.

You will no doubt be familiar with the strict requirements of Schedule 4 of POFA to be followed in order for a parking operator to be able to invoke keeper liability for a Parking Charge. There are a number of reasons why ECPL’s Notice to Keeper did not comply with POFA; in order that you may understand why, I suggest that you carefully study the details of Paragraphs 13 and 14 of Schedule 4 in particular.

Given that ECPL has forfeited its right to keeper liability, please confirm that you shall now cancel this charge. Alternatively, should you choose to reject my challenge, please provide me with details of the Independent Appeals Service (POPLA), their contact details and a unique POPLA appeal reference so that I may escalate the matter to POPLA.

Thank you for your cooperation and I look forward to receiving your response within the relevant timescales specified under the British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice.


Yours faithfully,

[Insert squiggle as signature]


As to the signature, the understanding of the keeper is that his real name and address should be used, as he has not disclosed he was the driver of the vehicle? Should the keeper emphasize in any way that information regarding who the driver was will not be submitted?

If it gets rejected, as expected, I will come back here with a larger POPLA appeal draft as the next step.


Thanks a lot in advance for any advice on the above appeal and when to submit it.
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Redivi
post Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 22:12
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He is not the keeper or the driver
He is the Hirer
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moneysavingexper...
post Sat, 6 Jul 2019 - 19:57
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 23:12) *
He is not the keeper or the driver
He is the Hirer

Thanks for the clarification. The text above should remain unchanged though? Particularly the bit that says:
QUOTE
I confirm that as the hirer of this vehicle, I am its keeper for the purpose of the corresponding definition
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Redivi
post Sat, 6 Jul 2019 - 21:11
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He is not the keeper or the driver
He is the Hirer

I confirm that I am the hirer of this vehicle, I am its keeper for the purpose of the corresponding definition

This post has been edited by Redivi: Sat, 6 Jul 2019 - 21:12
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moneysavingexper...
post Sat, 6 Jul 2019 - 21:33
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Cheers, will amend the text to this:

QUOTE
Dear Sir,

Parking Charge Notice [0123456789]: Vehicle Registration [AA11ABC]

I refer to the above-detailed Parking Charge Notice (“PCN”) issued to me by Euro Car Parks Limited (“ECPL”) as a Notice to Keeper. I confirm that I am the hirer of this vehicle and I write to formally challenge the validity of this PCN.

You will no doubt be familiar with the strict requirements of Schedule 4 of POFA to be followed in order for a parking operator to be able to invoke keeper liability for a Parking Charge. There are a number of reasons why ECPL’s Notice to Keeper did not comply with POFA; in order that you may understand why, I suggest that you carefully study the details of Paragraphs 13 and 14 of Schedule 4 in particular.

Given that ECPL has forfeited its right to keeper liability, please confirm that you shall now cancel this charge. Alternatively, should you choose to reject my challenge, please provide me with details of the Independent Appeals Service (POPLA), their contact details and a unique POPLA appeal reference so that I may escalate the matter to POPLA.

Thank you for your cooperation and I look forward to receiving your response within the relevant timescales specified under the British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice.


Yours faithfully,
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ostell
post Sun, 7 Jul 2019 - 07:59
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That's a rather long winded response. Search the forum for one of the several threads where I've given a response for exactly this situation and leaves them in no doubt that they have failed.
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moneysavingexper...
post Sun, 7 Jul 2019 - 10:53
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QUOTE (ostell @ Sun, 7 Jul 2019 - 08:59) *
That's a rather long winded response. Search the forum for one of the several threads where I've given a response for exactly this situation and leaves them in no doubt that they have failed.

Thanks ostell, greatly appreciated. One of your more succint suggestions found on other threads will be sent either online or by post via 1st class getting free proof of postage so it arrives to them between days 19 and 21 of the date of the NTK that was received.

Update to follow when more news are available, most likely an appeal rejection and POPLA stage, for which a draft will be posted for advice.

PS: it has been also noticed that the NTK received does not comply with POFA section 14(5)©, which may be yet another argument for the POPLA appeal. There's no mention at all about any 21 day period.
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ostell
post Sun, 7 Jul 2019 - 14:30
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For POPLA throw all POFA fails at the

I mention 21 days as in para 14 the relevant period is 21 days and frequently an appeal is required within a similar time frame. POFA also states that the hirer becomes liable after 21 days. Thats why 19 days so that the hirer does not become liable
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