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NIP not recieved, now have SJP with failure to declare driver, Deadlines?
Wes1984
post Mon, 25 Oct 2021 - 15:14
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Hi all,
I was caught speeding at 52mph in a 40mph zone which I don’t contest and it was me driving on 24/04/2021, I had only just bought the car and the details weren’t updated by DVLA in time so previous owner was contacted (this was on 30/04/2021 according to SJP paper work) following what I assume is contact from the previous owner a second NIP was issued on 24/06/2021 for myself. Both were issued Royal Mail first class apparently, but the one sent to myself was never received (I would have definitely just accepted the fine as it was only band A and I have no other speeding convictions or points).

I only have all this information now as I have recieved an SJP notice (dated 22/10/2021) with all this information
With the following charges:
Exceed 40mph speed limit-manned equipment
Fail to give information relating to identification of the driver/ rider of a vehicle when required

My understanding is that the advice usually given is to plead not guilty to both, go to court and plea bargain on the day with prosecutor. But then I read other information about the 6 month deadline for prosecution for speeding offences so bearing in mind that my court date would be well after this date, would that plea bargain of accepting speeding in exchange for dropping the ‘failure to give information’ still be an option?

Also what sort of court costs am i likely to incur by going to court?

Thanks in advance for any help with this, I could really do with out the additional weighting on my insurance so im desperate to get the other charge dropped.
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post Mon, 25 Oct 2021 - 15:14
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Wes1984
post Sat, 4 Dec 2021 - 21:23
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QUOTE (andy_foster @ Sat, 4 Dec 2021 - 21:11) *
There is no single legal definition of "it's been dropped" - it can be that the CPS have simply decided not to proceed with that charge, or are intending to offer no evidence, or it might be that it has been formally discontinued (in which case you ought to have received a notice of discontinuance).

Similarly, what is listed on the court paperwork may or may not bear any relation to the current state of the case.


So bearing this in mind what do you think I should do moving forward? Just wait and go to court as requested? Contact the courts now and ask for clarification or more information? Contact HMCTS for more information?
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andy_foster
post Sat, 4 Dec 2021 - 21:56
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Yes


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Wes1984
post Mon, 6 Dec 2021 - 11:25
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I’m at a complete loss as to what’s going on now, the HMCTS have told me the case was reopened due to a speeding incident 12/12/2019 involving a Toyota which I have no clue about, I have never owned a Toyota and from what HMCTS have told me there is no mention of my name relating to that case so they’re unsure how the two are linked and can’t tell me anymore information about it. They’ve assured me that they’re trying to get the courts to urgently look into what’s happened and they will contact me soon hopefully. In the mean time I’m on the verge of a panic attack from this stress and no one can even tell me what’s happening.
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The Rookie
post Mon, 6 Dec 2021 - 11:31
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Why get stressed when you know it's nothing to do with you?

Just sounds like someone mixed up the files, soon fixed!


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Wes1984
post Mon, 6 Dec 2021 - 12:07
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I’ve now been told the case was initially resolved on the 22/11/21, they’re saying they probably hadn’t received the plea information by this date (it was signed for on the 2nd of November so they definitely had it) but miraculously just happened to progress with just the speeding as per my plea bargain offer (even though they hadn’t considered my offer yet, they said they hadn’t received/considered it remember?) they’ve told me the other case regarding the Toyota was added in error and has been removed now, this must have been very close to the time my case was reopened as on the 29th when I spoke to HMCTS the Toyota offence wasn’t on file relating to my case, coincidence? Surely that error is the reason the case has been reopened! but either way now I have to go through the hassle of sending them in an email with my plea offer again and tell them Im guilty of the speeding but not the s172.

Just to add, they said that I should admit guilt in the email for the speeding but not guilty for s172 as this would have resolved the case quicker initially but most advice on here says to state not guilty on both but with the plea bargain offer, how do you think I should proceed as far as wording of this email to the courts?

This post has been edited by Wes1984: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 - 12:37
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The Rookie
post Mon, 6 Dec 2021 - 13:52
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QUOTE (Wes1984 @ Mon, 6 Dec 2021 - 12:07) *
Just to add, they said that I should admit guilt in the email for the speeding but not guilty for s172 as this would have resolved the case quicker initially but most advice on here says to state not guilty on both but with the plea bargain offer, how do you think I should proceed as far as wording of this email to the courts?

The same as you did before, not guilty to both and a conditional offer on a guilty plea, you don't take legal advice from a secretary regardless of who they work for.

If you plead as they suggest it's not impossible they progress the S172 anyway and you have a weak defence and risk getting 9 points in total.


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Wes1984
post Mon, 6 Dec 2021 - 14:01
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 6 Dec 2021 - 13:52) *
QUOTE (Wes1984 @ Mon, 6 Dec 2021 - 12:07) *
Just to add, they said that I should admit guilt in the email for the speeding but not guilty for s172 as this would have resolved the case quicker initially but most advice on here says to state not guilty on both but with the plea bargain offer, how do you think I should proceed as far as wording of this email to the courts?

The same as you did before, not guilty to both and a conditional offer on a guilty plea, you don't take legal advice from a secretary regardless of who they work for.

If you plead as they suggest it's not impossible they progress the S172 anyway and you have a weak defence and risk getting 9 points in total.


Ok thanks, I’ll keep this post updated.
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Wes1984
post Mon, 6 Dec 2021 - 19:27
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angry.gif angry.gif I’m struggling with how to word my plea bargain email to the courts, I would like to make sure I mention the fact I should have been eligible for a fixed penalty notice in the first instance had I received the initial sjp but I don’t want to sound entitled.

The clerk has implied that the fact I went ‘not guilty’ on both charges rather than me going ‘guilty’ for the speeding as per her suggestion is the reason my case was reopened (I’m not convinced and still believe this is down to someone elses Speeding charge being added to the case file and then removed but by which time it was possibly too late as the case had been reopened) but I don’t want to incriminate myself and end up with 9 points, equally though..if the way I pleaded is the reason it was reopened then my new plea will likely result in the same outcome anyway so is it worth even sending this plea offer??

Surely there has to be some information available relating to why the reopened the case, I don’t understand how I can be told by the clerk that it’s probably this or maybe that, someone must have information relating to why?

Finally….

If anyone has a neat simple way of responding and how to word this email plea bargain I would be really grateful for any assistance? The fact this is going to be wasting court time in the first place is bloody ridiculous
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southpaw82
post Mon, 6 Dec 2021 - 20:20
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“I am willing to plead guilty to the speeding offence on the condition that the s 172 offence is withdrawn. Otherwise, my plea will be not guilty to both offences.”

“In mitigation, I would like to respectfully point to the Magistrates Sentencing Guidelines, which say that where a fixed penalty is not taken up for reasons beyond the defendant’s control the court ought to consider imposing a sentence equivalent to the fixed penalty. I did not have the opportunity to accept a fixed penalty because…”


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Wes1984
post Mon, 6 Dec 2021 - 20:29
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 6 Dec 2021 - 20:20) *
“I am willing to plead guilty to the speeding offence on the condition that the s 172 offence is withdrawn. Otherwise, my plea will be not guilty to both offences.”

“In mitigation, I would like to respectfully point to the Magistrates Sentencing Guidelines, which say that where a fixed penalty is not taken up for reasons beyond the defendant’s control the court ought to consider imposing a sentence equivalent to the fixed penalty. I did not have the opportunity to accept a fixed penalty because…”


Excellent, thank you, that’s very helpful especially with regards to the mitigation.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the reopening? On what grounds can the case be reopened and what record must they have on file for the reason why? I can’t believe that they couldn’t tell me clearly on the phone exactly why they had reopened.
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Wes1984
post Mon, 6 Dec 2021 - 21:45
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As it stands my email is…

With regards to case _ and _, I [my name], am willing to plead guilty to the speeding offence on the condition that the s.172 offence is withdrawn. Otherwise, my plea will be not guilty to both offences.

In mitigation, I would like to respectfully point to the Magistrates Sentencing Guidelines, which say that where a fixed penalty is not taken up for reasons beyond the defendant’s control the court ought to consider imposing a sentence equivalent to the fixed penalty. I did not have the opportunity to accept a fixed penalty because as I previously mentioned with my original plea and cover note, I didn’t receive the original sjp. I would have been completely willing to provide this information as the speeding was the lowest category speeding offence, I have no points on my license, no criminal record and no previous driving offences so it would make no sense to not respond.

As an additional note I still have no knowledge as to why the case was reopened following previous resolution on the 22/11/21 whereby I was issued a fine and 3 points and the s.172 had been dropped. This has caused me considerable stress following the final relief that the case had been resolved. To my knowledge no further information had been presented, my original plea had been received by the court 20 days previously so should have been considered in determining that previous outcome. I have been given a possible explanation that it may be down to my plea not being received although this was sent to yourselves in ample time to consider, could you possibly provide any explanation for this? Is it possible that a speeding offence that was added in error relating to a Toyota on the 12/12/19 could have triggered the reopening of the case?



I know it’s probably irrelevant but I want to know exactly why it’s been opened again! Am I asking for trouble by carrying on down this route of implying they’re incompetent and have no genuine reason for this? I’m just hoping that by reopening I can get the fine reduced so it may do me a favour in the long run.
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 10:26
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If you get this resolved, with 3 points and a fp level fine, does it matter?

You've taken a nice, to the point email which requires no effort on their part, to one that is a mess.
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The Rookie
post Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 10:43
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QUOTE (Wes1984 @ Mon, 6 Dec 2021 - 21:45) *
I know it’s probably irrelevant but I want to know exactly why it’s been opened again!

I though YOU wanted it reopened to address the fine level and try and get the FP tariff?


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Council PCN's
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Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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Wes1984
post Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 11:07
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 10:26) *
If you get this resolved, with 3 points and a fp level fine, does it matter?

You've taken a nice, to the point email which requires no effort on their part, to one that is a mess.


To say it’s a mess is a bit of an exaggeration. The first half of my email is worded more or less as recommended by southpaw82 and looks to be fairly concise in my eyes.

With regards to the additional note which I admit has no real relevance to the plea bargain, I’ve intentionally separated that part so as not to dilute the main point. And in all fairness the entire case has been made more complicated by their decision to reopen so it’s going to be difficult to get that question across without it being a bit of a ‘mess’. why shouldn’t I be able to gain an understanding of the reasoning behind the decision, if the justice system isn’t transparent with a clear explanation of why decisions are made then it should be…



QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 10:43) *
QUOTE (Wes1984 @ Mon, 6 Dec 2021 - 21:45) *
I know it’s probably irrelevant but I want to know exactly why it’s been opened again!

I though YOU wanted it reopened to address the fine level and try and get the FP tariff?


I was considering that after you said I may be able to get the fine reduced, and if I had of asked them to reopen it then I would have had a clear understanding and reason for that to happen (the excessive fine as cause for it to be reconsidered). I don’t see why if the prosecution decide to reopen it then they should also have good cause to do so and be able to let me know why?

Ultimately I know it doesn’t change the outcome, it’s just got my back up and I find the whole thing really irritating. I’ll probably just remove that part but I just find it incredibly frustrating…

This post has been edited by Wes1984: Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 11:11
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 11:36
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Be pragmatic.

"It should be" - then get the govt to correctly fund the courts system.
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Wes1984
post Tue, 21 Dec 2021 - 04:44
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So email was sent 10/12/21. I received an automated confirmation of receipt and have heard nothing else, the hearing is due to be on the 12/01/22. Do you think I will receive a new court date with the s172 dropped or will they usually just expect me to go to court and deal with it on the day? If so what’s the purpose of me even sending that new plea over. I am starting to feel like I should have followed the clerks advice and just plead guilty to speeding/not guilty to s172 as they advised as she seemed pretty certain that would have had the desired outcome but we will just have to see if that proves true. I have a bad feeling that I’ll have to go to court and for the fact it’s been over complicated by not doing as they recommended I’ll be penalised, end up with 9 points and a bigger fine. Is there any reason they’re more likely to progress the s172 if I went guilty to the speeding and not the s172? Really hope my current gut instinct proves wrong, I’m sure the people on this forum who deal with this kind of issue on a regular basis have better judgement than me here.

Also what kind of evidence can I use as regards to not receiving the previous SJP? The house I live in is a new build down a cul de sac off an existing road with a strange numbering arrangement and we only moved in about 6 months prior to the original offence, I’ve spoken to someone who works at the local post office who has said it’s fairly common for these kind of problems and they could provide me a letter to say something along those lines with regards to a new build house and these problems but I’m not sure what would likely be able to be used as evidence if it’s just a general response letter and not regarding a specific piece of Mail that I can prove has gone missing. What are peoples thoughts regarding that if I have to try and prove that?

This post has been edited by Wes1984: Tue, 21 Dec 2021 - 06:38
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Wes1984
post Tue, 11 Jan 2022 - 14:31
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*UDATE*

Following no response to my previous plea, I finally spoke to a much more helpful member of the courts team who contacted the prosecution on my behalf to see if they would accept the plea bargain and avoid court for myself by dropping the s.172 in advance.

Finally had a reply from them saying they are happy to withdraw the s.172 if I emailed in a guilty plea to the speeding offence which I have now done. I understand I had been advised not to do this initially but as I now have it in writing that ftf would be withdrawn I’m assuming this was ok to do at this stage? All I’m hoping for now is a fine that’s in line with fixed penalty I would have received in the first place had the letter got to me. I’ll keep you updated when I hear from them again regarding this.
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 11 Jan 2022 - 16:47
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It would be hugely unusual for them to renege on a written deal.
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andy_foster
post Tue, 11 Jan 2022 - 17:55
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The stock advice is never to plead guilty to the speeding unless/until the prosecution agree to drop the s. 172. They have agreed to drop the s. 172.


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Wes1984
post Thu, 27 Jan 2022 - 16:29
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FINAL OUTCOME

So s172 was dropped as previously mentioned, 3 points as before for speeding but still no fixed penalty equivalent for the fine 😡, charged me £330 which is less than the previous amount before the reopening so still a win I guess, glad to finally be done with the whole shambles!!

Thanks all for all the advice and assistance with this.
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