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FightBack Forums _ Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalised Notices _ Suspended bay PCN help

Posted by: chopperferrari Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 12:56
Post #1343705

Hi,

I parked in a bay in the City Of London on the 30th of November, I couldn't see any parking suspension signs from where I parked (although there are some in the pictures they have taken, but can't be seen them in relation to my car), I looked at the meter, while I was parking out of charging hours there was meter was uncovered and had no signs on it. When I returned to my car I had received a ticket. Can anyone help me appeal this as it doesn't seem that the signage was correct?

The code is PCN 21.









Posted by: stamfordman Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 12:59
Post #1343710

We've had a lot of these - City has a track record of putting up these tiny suspension signs. In this case it's an amazing 2 year suspension which must be suspect - surely they should remove the bay. Mad Mick is the expert on these and I'm sure will be along.

Posted by: chopperferrari Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 13:29
Post #1343732

Thank you for the speedy reply - I hope Mad Mick can help me with this smile.gif

Posted by: Chaseman Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 13:42
Post #1343741

Here's the authorised suspension sign as per the DfT website:

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-3520.pdf

You will notice two aspects:

1. The sign as erected looks absolutely nothing like the authorised version, which has simply been cribbed from RBKC. The latter is triangular, with "wings" that make it visible from all directions, whereas the erected sign is simply a flat plate. The wording on the sign is completely different to the auth version.

2. In para 3 of the authorisation, it is clear that a sign may not be erected for longer than 12 months. When you were nicked it had already been up for 18 months and was purporting to suspend for very nearly two years.

See what others say, but I can't see an adjudicator upholding this PCN. In any case, it looks as though you are well past the period in which you could have paid at a discount, so there is nothing to be lost by fighting all the way to LTs. You can't be fined any more if you lose.

Posted by: stamfordman Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 13:51
Post #1343748

+1

Is the car registered at your address. They will send a notice to owner to the registered address.

Posted by: Mad Mick V Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 14:17
Post #1343757

Have to careful on these at present given this rather dumbfounding Decision, which CoL is sure to quote, as allowing this type of signage:-

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=113743&view=findpost&p=1317822

I am still utterly pi$$ed by that Decision more so by the failure of a Review which featured a cast iron procedural impropriety.

Anyhow, the structure of any representation will be on the basis of post 3 of the above case plus the wholly unreasonable suspension period.

Mick

Posted by: chopperferrari Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 16:24
Post #1343811

Hi Everyone, thanks so much for your help.

Will a casual letter stating the points raised by Chaseman in post 3 be suitable, or do I need to get a legal style template on the go?

Thanks,
Ben

Posted by: Chaseman Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 17:26
Post #1343831

QUOTE (chopperferrari @ Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 16:24) *
Hi Everyone, thanks so much for your help.

Will a casual letter stating the points raised by Chaseman in post 3 be suitable, or do I need to get a legal style template on the go?

Thanks,
Ben


Challenges/appeals are not legal documents, they just need to be drafted clearly and succinctly to get across the points you are making with references back to rules, regulations or previous cases as necessary.
Don't get angry or aggressive, just state your points objectively. I would suggest you have a go at drafting a letter and post up here for comment. Points to make IMHO are:

1. A temporary parking suspension sign needs specific DfT approval as such a sign does not appear in TSRGD.

2. CoL has had such a sign approved - quote the reference/date

3. I note that the signage as erected bears no similarity to the approved sign - and give the main areas of difference

4. As the erected sign is not of the approved sort I contend that it is inadequate to have the effect of suspending parking. If CoL has an approved sign, why has it not been used?

5. The approval for the temporary parking suspension sign makes clear at para 3 of that approval that such signage may not be erected for a period longer than 12 months. As you will see from the photos [these are the authority's photos?] the signage at the bay where I was issued a PCN purports to suspend the bay for 23 months and had already been in situ for 18 months at the relevant time. I contend that this extended period is specifically outlawed by the authorisation and hence renders the parking suspension unenforceable.

6. I therefore request cancellation of the PCN.

Love and kisses
Ben

BTW, I take it you have not yet received a NTO? It's probably on the way as you were ticketed (it seems) on 30 Nov. Could you also post up a full picture of the PCN, both sides, with PCN number and car reg obscured (although this is already apparent from the photos).

Posted by: chopperferrari Thu, 4 Jan 2018 - 12:35
Post #1344014

QUOTE (Chaseman @ Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 17:26) *
Challenges/appeals are not legal documents, they just need to be drafted clearly and succinctly to get across the points you are making with references back to rules, regulations or previous cases as necessary.
Don't get angry or aggressive, just state your points objectively. I would suggest you have a go at drafting a letter and post up here for comment. Points to make IMHO are:

1. A temporary parking suspension sign needs specific DfT approval as such a sign does not appear in TSRGD.

2. CoL has had such a sign approved - quote the reference/date

3. I note that the signage as erected bears no similarity to the approved sign - and give the main areas of difference

4. As the erected sign is not of the approved sort I contend that it is inadequate to have the effect of suspending parking. If CoL has an approved sign, why has it not been used?

5. The approval for the temporary parking suspension sign makes clear at para 3 of that approval that such signage may not be erected for a period longer than 12 months. As you will see from the photos [these are the authority's photos?] the signage at the bay where I was issued a PCN purports to suspend the bay for 23 months and had already been in situ for 18 months at the relevant time. I contend that this extended period is specifically outlawed by the authorisation and hence renders the parking suspension unenforceable.

6. I therefore request cancellation of the PCN.

Love and kisses
Ben

BTW, I take it you have not yet received a NTO? It's probably on the way as you were ticketed (it seems) on 30 Nov. Could you also post up a full picture of the PCN, both sides, with PCN number and car reg obscured (although this is already apparent from the photos).


Thanks so much! I received the NTO this morning - please see pictures below.








Posted by: chopperferrari Sun, 7 Jan 2018 - 15:56
Post #1344860

Hi Guys,


Here's my first go at drafting a letter - some feeback would be ace smile.gif

Dear City of London,

I parked in a bay on 30th of November, I couldn't see any parking suspension signs from where I parked, I check the street posts and the meter was operational and confirmed that I was parked out of charging hours, the was meter was uncovered and had no signs on it. So when I returned to my car later that evening I was very surprised I had received a PCN ticket.

On assessing the PCN notice and the evidence provided by City of London I have established that the following criteria have not been met.

1) A temporary parking suspension sign needs specific DfT approval as such a sign does not appear in TSRGD.

2) City of London has had such a sign approved - Road traffic regulation Act 1984 - Sections 64 and 65 authorisation fo traffic signs and special directions GT50/027/0013-1 - date approved 7th of August 2012.

3) I note that the signage as erected bears no similarity to the approved sign - the sign as erected has been cribbed from RBKC, is flat, and the wording is completely different from the authorised sign. The authorised sign is triangular, with wings that make it visible from all directions.

4) As the erected sign is not of the approved sort I contend that it is inadequate to have the effect of suspending parking. If City of London has an approved sign, why has it not been used?

5) The approval for the temporary parking suspension sign makes clear at para 3 of that approval that such signage may not be erected for a period longer than 12 months. As you will see from the photos (provided by the City of London) the signage at the bay where I was issued a PCN purports to suspend the bay for 23 months and had already been in situ for 18 months at the relevant time. I contend that this extended period is specifically outlawed by the authorisation and hence renders the parking suspension unenforceable.

Taking into account the three points above I, therefore, request cancellation of the PCN.

Thank you very much for your time,

Posted by: PASTMYBEST Sun, 7 Jan 2018 - 17:13
Post #1344894

QUOTE (chopperferrari @ Sun, 7 Jan 2018 - 15:56) *
Hi Guys,


Here's my first go at drafting a letter - some feeback would be ace smile.gif

Dear City of London,

I parked in a bay on 30th of November, I couldn't see any parking suspension signs from where I parked, I check the street posts and the meter was operational and confirmed that I was parked out of charging hours, the was meter was uncovered and had no signs on it. So when I returned to my car later that evening I was very surprised I had received a PCN ticket.

On assessing the PCN notice and the evidence provided by City of London I have established that the following criteria have not been met.

1) A temporary parking suspension sign needs specific DfT approval as such a sign does not appear in TSRGD.

2) City of London has had such a sign approved - Road traffic regulation Act 1984 - Sections 64 and 65 authorisation fo traffic signs and special directions GT50/027/0013-1 - date approved 7th of August 2012.

3) I note that the signage as erected bears no similarity to the approved sign - the sign as erected has been cribbed from RBKC, is flat, and the wording is completely different from the authorised sign. The authorised sign is triangular, with wings that make it visible from all directions.

4) As the erected sign is not of the approved sort I contend that it is inadequate to have the effect of notifying the motorist of suspending/ed parking. If City of London has an approved sign, why has it not been used?

5) The approval for the temporary parking suspension sign makes clear at para 3 of that approval that such signage may not be erected for a period longer than 12 months. As you will see from the photos (provided by the City of London) the signage at the bay where I was issued a PCN purports to suspend the bay for 23 months and had already been in situ for 18 months at the relevant time. I contend that this extended period is specifically outlawed by the authorisation and hence renders the parking suspension unenforceable.

Taking into account the three points above I, therefore, request cancellation of the PCN.

Thank you very much for your time,


Add/amend the bit in red

Posted by: chopperferrari Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 13:18
Post #1345500

QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 7 Jan 2018 - 17:13) *
QUOTE (chopperferrari @ Sun, 7 Jan 2018 - 15:56) *
Hi Guys,


Here's my first go at drafting a letter - some feeback would be ace smile.gif

Dear City of London,

I parked in a bay on 30th of November, I couldn't see any parking suspension signs from where I parked, I check the street posts and the meter was operational and confirmed that I was parked out of charging hours, the was meter was uncovered and had no signs on it. So when I returned to my car later that evening I was very surprised I had received a PCN ticket.

On assessing the PCN notice and the evidence provided by City of London I have established that the following criteria have not been met.

1) A temporary parking suspension sign needs specific DfT approval as such a sign does not appear in TSRGD.

2) City of London has had such a sign approved - Road traffic regulation Act 1984 - Sections 64 and 65 authorisation fo traffic signs and special directions GT50/027/0013-1 - date approved 7th of August 2012.

3) I note that the signage as erected bears no similarity to the approved sign - the sign as erected has been cribbed from RBKC, is flat, and the wording is completely different from the authorised sign. The authorised sign is triangular, with wings that make it visible from all directions.

4) As the erected sign is not of the approved sort I contend that it is inadequate to have the effect of notifying the motorist of suspending/ed parking. If City of London has an approved sign, why has it not been used?

5) The approval for the temporary parking suspension sign makes clear at para 3 of that approval that such signage may not be erected for a period longer than 12 months. As you will see from the photos (provided by the City of London) the signage at the bay where I was issued a PCN purports to suspend the bay for 23 months and had already been in situ for 18 months at the relevant time. I contend that this extended period is specifically outlawed by the authorisation and hence renders the parking suspension unenforceable.

Taking into account the three points above I, therefore, request cancellation of the PCN.

Thank you very much for your time,


Add/amend the bit in red



Thanks!


All good to go?

Posted by: DancingDad Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 13:46
Post #1345515

QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 14:17) *
Have to careful on these at present given this rather dumbfounding Decision, which CoL is sure to quote, as allowing this type of signage:-

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=113743&view=findpost&p=1317822

I am still utterly pi$$ed by that Decision more so by the failure of a Review which featured a cast iron procedural impropriety.

Anyhow, the structure of any representation will be on the basis of post 3 of the above case plus the wholly unreasonable suspension period.

Mick


Missed that decision.
Can anyone point me to diagram 640.1 in TSRGD 2016 ?????


Posted by: PASTMYBEST Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 13:50
Post #1345517

QUOTE (DancingDad @ Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 13:46) *
QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 14:17) *
Have to careful on these at present given this rather dumbfounding Decision, which CoL is sure to quote, as allowing this type of signage:-

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=113743&view=findpost&p=1317822

I am still utterly pi$$ed by that Decision more so by the failure of a Review which featured a cast iron procedural impropriety.

Anyhow, the structure of any representation will be on the basis of post 3 of the above case plus the wholly unreasonable suspension period.

Mick


Missed that decision.
Can anyone point me to diagram 640.1 in TSRGD 2016 ?????



Schedule 13 part 6 item 22

Posted by: DancingDad Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 13:52
Post #1345519

QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 13:50) *
........Schedule 13 part 6 item 22

Ta

Posted by: Mad Mick V Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 17:40
Post #1345594

It's only use is for a cowl over a ticket machine and the adjudicator was IMO wrong to suggest it's use was proper or that it could substitute for a DfT approved parking suspension sign.

Mick

Posted by: hcandersen Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 09:00
Post #1345781

Where are the photos?

Normally:
Meter means single bay;
Meter can be a traffic sign;
In such cases there would not be any obligation to look for any traffic sign beyond the meter.

So, that another and apparently contradictory sign was present might not be the issue!

Posted by: chopperferrari Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 16:23
Post #1345920

Photo have disappeared - apparently i need to upgrade my pepipoo account - anyone know a solution to this?

Posted by: stamfordman Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 16:34
Post #1345922

QUOTE (chopperferrari @ Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 16:23) *
Photo have disappeared - apparently i need to upgrade my pepipoo account - anyone know a solution to this?



No it's Photobucket - it's crap. Try another pic site such as Flickr or Imgur.

Posted by: chopperferrari Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 22:33
Post #1346030

QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 16:34) *
QUOTE (chopperferrari @ Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 16:23) *
Photo have disappeared - apparently i need to upgrade my pepipoo account - anyone know a solution to this?



No it's Photobucket - it's crap. Try another pic site such as Flickr or Imgur.


Thanks!



https://flic.kr/p/JqreR6https://flic.kr/p/JqreR6

https://flic.kr/p/23jxajUhttps://flic.kr/p/23jxajU

https://flic.kr/p/Jqre2ahttps://flic.kr/p/Jqre2a

https://flic.kr/p/23jx9jshttps://flic.kr/p/23jx9js

https://flic.kr/p/23jx9Khhttps://flic.kr/p/23jx9Kh

https://flic.kr/p/21ZX6j6https://flic.kr/p/21ZX6j6

https://flic.kr/p/23jxb8Nhttps://flic.kr/p/23jxb8N


Posted by: hcandersen Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 08:19
Post #1346079

There's no parking meter involved, you parked in a P&D parking place divided into separate bays.

I can see a traffic sign by HD16. This refers to P&D 24/7 and indicates where the ticket machine is to be found. I cannot see whether this refers to a suspension within the parking place. I can also see what appears to be a suspension sign on the wall to the rear of the footway adjacent to HD10 where you were parked. I can see HD10 as apparently being the first bay within the parking place which is adjacent to a disabled bay.

What I cannot see is the ticket machine and what I want to know is:

Do ALL traffic signs situated within the parking place carry information regarding the suspension? They are required to do so.

Where is the ticket machine and does it carry info regarding the suspension.

IMO, you should not focus exclusively on the suspension sign. This is is not a unique situation: you have a multi-bay parking place in which one or more bays is suspended and therefore ALL traffic signs within the parking place must carry this information because the discrete unit is the parking place, not the bay.

Posted by: chopperferrari Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 11:52
Post #1346134

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 08:19) *
There's no parking meter involved, you parked in a P&D parking place divided into separate bays.

I can see a traffic sign by HD16. This refers to P&D 24/7 and indicates where the ticket machine is to be found. I cannot see whether this refers to a suspension within the parking place. I can also see what appears to be a suspension sign on the wall to the rear of the footway adjacent to HD10 where you were parked. I can see HD10 as apparently being the first bay within the parking place which is adjacent to a disabled bay.

What I cannot see is the ticket machine and what I want to know is:

Do ALL traffic signs situated within the parking place carry information regarding the suspension? They are required to do so.

Where is the ticket machine and does it carry info regarding the suspension.

IMO, you should not focus exclusively on the suspension sign. This is is not a unique situation: you have a multi-bay parking place in which one or more bays is suspended and therefore ALL traffic signs within the parking place must carry this information because the discrete unit is the parking place, not the bay.


1. From memory it's the only traffic sign visible

2. The ticket machine is at the end of the run of bays (maybe 4 bays away)
Here is a pick of the meter.

https://flic.kr/p/23nWx6ehttps://flic.kr/p/23nWx6e by https://www.flickr.com/photos/158731047@N08/

Posted by: hcandersen Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 15:12
Post #1346212

So..

On parking you would see the road markings - you always start with markings when they're present. These put you on notice that restrictions and permissions of some sort apply. You are required to look for a traffic sign which conveys these restrictions.

So, you exit your van and walk towards the ticket machine and you notice a traffic sign further on. You go the that sign - HD16- which does not refer to a suspension but instead informs you that the parking place is P&D 24/7. You go to the machine and purchase a ticket, the machine not conveying any other info (I'm guessing regarding charging being in effect because the photo doesn't show this info. I've seen hundreds of P&D machines, so I don't want to see a photo of another, what I need is the instructions contained within it!)

You place your ticket in your vehicle and leave.

The sign on the wall by HD10 is totally irrelevant to these proceedings. Big sign, small sign, authorised, approved or whatever. Who cares, it's not relevant. So let's not get hoodwinked into thinking it's the centre of this issue, it could be totally irrelevant.

So, could we have further info - not guesswork pl, but facts - regarding what is stated on the machine and how many traffic signs are situated within the parking place.

Of course, if you've already acknowledged that you saw and read the HD10 sign, this rather weakens your case, but not necessarily fatally.

Posted by: chopperferrari Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 16:18
Post #1346240

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 15:12) *
So..

On parking you would see the road markings - you always start with markings when they're present. These put you on notice that restrictions and permissions of some sort apply. You are required to look for a traffic sign which conveys these restrictions.

So, you exit your van and walk towards the ticket machine and you notice a traffic sign further on. You go the that sign - HD16- which does not refer to a suspension but instead informs you that the parking place is P&D 24/7. You go to the machine and purchase a ticket, the machine not conveying any other info (I'm guessing regarding charging being in effect because the photo doesn't show this info. I've seen hundreds of P&D machines, so I don't want to see a photo of another, what I need is the instructions contained within it!)

You place your ticket in your vehicle and leave.

The sign on the wall by HD10 is totally irrelevant to these proceedings. Big sign, small sign, authorised, approved or whatever. Who cares, it's not relevant. So let's not get hoodwinked into thinking it's the centre of this issue, it could be totally irrelevant.

So, could we have further info - not guesswork pl, but facts - regarding what is stated on the machine and how many traffic signs are situated within the parking place.

Of course, if you've already acknowledged that you saw and read the HD10 sign, this rather weakens your case, but not necessarily fatally.


Thanks -

There seems to be some confusion...

1. It was out of charging hours for P&D (7.30pm).

2. I looked for signs - I couldn't see any (i did not see the HD10 sign one the wall next to Starbucks - I've never seen a sign mounted like this before) So headed to look at the machine.

3. The photo of the machine was taken when returning to my car - as you can see it has no suspension information on it.

4. I'd have to return to the location to confirm the number of parking sign, one the night after I received the ticket I explored and couldn't see any other signage, and the machine just had normal operational information.



Posted by: hcandersen Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 17:08
Post #1346262

Fine. Perhaps one our contributor cohort lives near or has up to date info.

The P&D sign is 24/7, therefore some type of restriction has to apply 24/7. If it's not P&D, it would be something else. It can't be maximum stay because they'd be no way to set the start time (unless you obtain a free ticket). Perhaps it's a no return limit. But if so, this must be stated on ALL traffic signs, not just the machine. And it's NOT on the HD10 sign.

Curiouser and curiouser but it adds to the circumstantial evidence that the suspension is not displayed at all places where it is required.

Anyway, we must see your challenge now.

I'm firming my position that the traffic signage is pants. See the sign near HD10, the suspension states that parking is still available in *** and I'm now becoming surer that the traffic signs there do not reciprocate i.e. they do not carry info on the suspension. It's as if the sign applies only to those bays.

Wrong!

Posted by: chopperferrari Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 15:12
Post #1346777

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 17:08) *
Fine. Perhaps one our contributor cohort lives near or has up to date info.

The P&D sign is 24/7, therefore some type of restriction has to apply 24/7. If it's not P&D, it would be something else. It can't be maximum stay because they'd be no way to set the start time (unless you obtain a free ticket). Perhaps it's a no return limit. But if so, this must be stated on ALL traffic signs, not just the machine. And it's NOT on the HD10 sign.

Curiouser and curiouser but it adds to the circumstantial evidence that the suspension is not displayed at all places where it is required.

Anyway, we must see your challenge now.

I'm firming my position that the traffic signage is pants. See the sign near HD10, the suspension states that parking is still available in *** and I'm now becoming surer that the traffic signs there do not reciprocate i.e. they do not carry info on the suspension. It's as if the sign applies only to those bays.

Wrong!



Thanks - here is my letter draft, any thoughts would be most welcome.

I parked in a bay on 30th of November, I couldn't see any parking suspension signs from where I parked, I check the street posts and the meter was operational and confirmed that I was parked out of charging hours, the was meter was uncovered and had no signs on it. So when I returned to my car later that evening I was very surprised I had received a PCN ticket.

On assessing the PCN notice and the evidence provided by City of London I have established that the following criteria have not been met.

1) A temporary parking suspension sign needs specific DfT approval as such a sign does not appear in TSRGD.

2) City of London has had such a sign approved - Road traffic regulation Act 1984 - Sections 64 and 65 authorisation for traffic signs and special directions GT50/027/0013-1 - date approved 7th of August 2012.

3) I note that the signage as erected bears no similarity to the approved sign - the sign as erected has been cribbed from RBKC, is flat, screwed to the wall outside a Starbucks, isn't visible unless viewed faced head-on, and the wording is completely different from the authorised sign. The authorised sign is triangular, large, with wings that make it visible from all directions.

4) As the erected sign is not of the approved sort I contend that it is inadequate to have the effect of notifying the motorist of suspending/ed parking. If City of London has an approved sign, why has it not been used?

5) The approval for the temporary parking suspension sign makes clear at para 3 of that approval that such signage may not be erected for a period longer than 12 months. As you will see from the photos (provided by the City of London) the signage at the bay where I was issued a PCN purports to suspend the bay for 23 months and had already been in situ for 18 months at the relevant time. I contend that this extended period is specifically outlawed by the authorisation and hence renders the parking suspension unenforceable.

6) The relationship of the suspension sign to my car is not shown in the evidence provided.

7) The suspension information is not displayed in anything location, other street signs or on the parking meter.

Taking into account the points raised above I, therefore, request cancellation of the PCN.

Thank you very much for your time,

Posted by: Mad Mick V Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 10:43
Post #1347182

OP----that looks fine. I would add that in investigating this matter you find that there is overwhelming evidence that these small wall mounted signs have been ruled inadequate on a consistent basis at adjudication. Therefore I would ask that CoL explain why it feels it can enforce suspensions in this manner against a legitimate expectation that signage should comply with Reg18 The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996 :-

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=90145&view=findpost&p=1268339

Case Reference:Adjudicator
2160435978 Gerald Styles
2160444753 Edward Houghton
2160341670 Edward Houghton
2140130184 Edward Houghton
2160346142 Carl Teper
216037270A Mamta Parekh
2160446136 Carl Teper
2160042614 Edward Houghton
2160047039 Edward Houghton
2160078305 Christopher Rayner
2160128196 Edward Houghton
2160153422 Sean Stanton-Dunne
2160160993 Sean Stanton-Dunne
2160236199 Andrew Harman
2150281277 Neeti Haria)

Mick

Posted by: DancingDad Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 11:00
Post #1347189

QUOTE
I check the street posts and the meter was operational....


Make the above ....
I checked the signs on street posts, there were no suspension signs. The meter was operational....

Posted by: chopperferrari Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 12:49
Post #1347239

Thanks, guys you're fantastic. smile.gif

Here's my final draft I will send tonight - if you have any final thoughts that please let me know.

I parked in a bay on 30th of November, I couldn't see any parking suspension signs from where I parked, I checked the signs on street posts, there were no suspension signs. The meter was operational... So when I returned to my car later that evening I was very surprised I had received a PCN ticket.

On assessing the PCN notice and the evidence provided by City of London I have established that the following criteria have not been met.

1) A temporary parking suspension sign needs specific DfT approval as such a sign does not appear in TSRGD.

2) City of London has had such a sign approved - Road traffic regulation Act 1984 - Sections 64 and 65 authorisation for traffic signs and special directions GT50/027/0013-1 - date approved 7th of August 2012.

3) I note that the signage as erected bears no similarity to the approved sign - the sign as erected has been cribbed from RBKC, is flat, screwed to the wall outside a Starbucks, isn't visible unless viewed when faced head on, and the wording is completely different from the authorised sign. The authorised sign is triangular, large, with wings that make it visible from all directions.

4) As the erected sign is not of the approved sort I contend that it is inadequate to have the effect of notifying the motorist of suspending/ed parking. If City of London has an approved sign, why has it not been used?

5) The approval for the temporary parking suspension sign makes clear at para 3 of that approval that such signage may not be erected for a period longer than 12 months. As you will see from the photos (provided by the City of London) the signage at the bay where I was issued a PCN purports to suspend the bay for 23 months and had already been in situ for 18 months at the relevant time. I contend that this extended period is specifically outlawed by the authorisation and hence renders the parking suspension unenforceable.

6) The relationship of the suspension sign to my car is not shown in the evidence provided.

7) The suspension information is not displayed in any other location, other street signs or on the parking meter.

8) Investigating this matter I find that there is overwhelming evidence that these small wall mounted signs have been ruled inadequate on a consistent basis at adjudication. Can City of London please explain why it feels it can enforce suspensions in this manner against a legitimate expectation that signage should comply with RE18 The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...t&p=1268339

Case Reference: Adjudicator
2160435978 Gerald Styles
2160444753 Edward Houghton
2160341670 Edward Houghton
2140130184 Edward Houghton
2160346142 Carl Teper
216037270A Mamta Parekh
2160446136 Carl Teper
2160042614 Edward Houghton
2160047039 Edward Houghton
2160078305 Christopher Rayner
2160128196 Edward Houghton
2160153422 Sean Stanton-Dunne
2160160993 Sean Stanton-Dunne
2160236199 Andrew Harman
2150281277 Neeti Haria)

Taking into account the points raised above I, therefore, request cancellation of the PCN.

Thank you very much for your time,

Posted by: Mad Mick V Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 13:32
Post #1347261

OP--take the hyperlink out --that's was just for your benefit-- the http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...t&p=1268339 bit.

Mick

Posted by: chopperferrari Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 13:33
Post #1347263

Thanks Mick.

Posted by: chopperferrari Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 11:25
Post #1360586

Hi Everyone,


Sadly I received this response today

"Thank you for your communication in relation to the above PCN.
The PCN was issued because the vehicle was seen parked at a payment parking bay, which had been suspended. Suspended payment parking bays within the City are indicated by wall or post mounted notices stating “Parking Suspension – No Waiting, No Loading, No Unloading – At Any Time”.
The conditions of use plate on all payment machines advise you that; “You are liable to receive a PCN if you: – park on any part of a suspended payment parking bay or place at any time. You must check for additional signs at the time of parking”.
In this particular case the suspension notice forms part of the payment parking bay designation sign. The reason for this is because it is reasonable to expect drivers to check the designation of the payment parking bay in which they wish to park - disabled, loading, payment parking bay or otherwise. You will note that the attached photographs taken at the time that the PCN was issued show the actual suspension notice fixed in the manner I have described. You will also note that the suspension notice clearly sets out the extent and duration of the suspension.
The City chooses to advertise on streeet suspensions by placing notices at the relevant bay or parking place. A ‘notice’ is not a ‘traffic sign’ and as such there is no requirement that it be authorised or be compliant with any diagram in the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002/2004.
Therefore, having carefully considered the reasons for your challenge and the evidence before me, I am not prepared to cancel the PCN on this occasion."


Posted by: PASTMYBEST Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 11:28
Post #1360587

QUOTE (chopperferrari @ Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 11:25) *
Hi Everyone,


Sadly I received this response today

"Thank you for your communication in relation to the above PCN.
The PCN was issued because the vehicle was seen parked at a payment parking bay, which had been suspended. Suspended payment parking bays within the City are indicated by wall or post mounted notices stating “Parking Suspension – No Waiting, No Loading, No Unloading – At Any Time”.
The conditions of use plate on all payment machines advise you that; “You are liable to receive a PCN if you: – park on any part of a suspended payment parking bay or place at any time. You must check for additional signs at the time of parking”.
In this particular case the suspension notice forms part of the payment parking bay designation sign. The reason for this is because it is reasonable to expect drivers to check the designation of the payment parking bay in which they wish to park - disabled, loading, payment parking bay or otherwise. You will note that the attached photographs taken at the time that the PCN was issued show the actual suspension notice fixed in the manner I have described. You will also note that the suspension notice clearly sets out the extent and duration of the suspension.
The City chooses to advertise on streeet suspensions by placing notices at the relevant bay or parking place. A ‘notice’ is not a ‘traffic sign’ and as such there is no requirement that it be authorised or be compliant with any diagram in the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002/2004.
Therefore, having carefully considered the reasons for your challenge and the evidence before me, I am not prepared to cancel the PCN on this occasion."


Post up all of the actual letter not a transcription. They have been castigated in the past for that response.

Posted by: chopperferrari Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 11:38
Post #1360592

Ok, that's good news!

Letter attached.  18873B69CC114.PDF ( 1.26MB ) : 196

Posted by: chopperferrari Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 13:18
Post #1361537

Hi All,

Anyone have any thoughts on this - should i just suck it up and pay it?

Attached letter above.

Thanks,
Ben

Posted by: stamfordman Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 13:21
Post #1361543

No brainer to take it to the tribunal as discount is lost.

Posted by: chopperferrari Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 13:32
Post #1361545

Ok cool. Does that mean that if I lose at tribunal I just pay the fine? or do I get charged other costs?

Posted by: DancingDad Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 13:40
Post #1361546

QUOTE (chopperferrari @ Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 13:32) *
Ok cool. Does that mean that if I lose at tribunal I just pay the fine? or do I get charged other costs?


Only just caught up with this one.
Yes, most you will ever pay is the penalty...as long as you meet deadlines.

I am a little concerned that you chose to ignore HCA points on signage, to me that one is solid and not open to interpretation
Within any parking space a motorist has a duty to check restrictions and are entitled to rely on the first sign they see.
If that does not carry a suspension sign, the council cannot be said to have adequately signed the restriction.
If you parked, looked along row of bays and saw a sign (by HC16?), checked that, checked P&D machine for how much to pay and found it free to park at that time, there is little more that you could be reasonably expected to do.
Even if you parked up, ignored all signs and only checked after the event, one sign without suspension (out of two in the bay) is all that is needed to render the suspension sign inadequate.

Not too late to add this now but will need some evidence that the sign didn't have a suspension sign on it.

Posted by: chopperferrari Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 14:02
Post #1361555

QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 13:40) *
QUOTE (chopperferrari @ Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 13:32) *
Ok cool. Does that mean that if I lose at tribunal I just pay the fine? or do I get charged other costs?


Only just caught up with this one.
Yes, most you will ever pay is the penalty...as long as you meet deadlines.

I am a little concerned that you chose to ignore HCA points on signage, to me that one is solid and not open to interpretation
Within any parking space a motorist has a duty to check restrictions and are entitled to rely on the first sign they see.
If that does not carry a suspension sign, the council cannot be said to have adequately signed the restriction.
If you parked, looked along row of bays and saw a sign (by HC16?), checked that, checked P&D machine for how much to pay and found it free to park at that time, there is little more that you could be reasonably expected to do.
Even if you parked up, ignored all signs and only checked after the event, one sign without suspension (out of two in the bay) is all that is needed to render the suspension sign inadequate.

Not too late to add this now but will need some evidence that the sign didn't have a suspension sign on it.


Thanks - can you clarify what you mean by HCA points? Something missing from my original letter? (when I parked I couldn't see any signs, obviously, they have taken a photo of the wall mounted sign, I didn't see it despite my looking around.)

Posted by: DancingDad Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 14:08
Post #1361556

QUOTE (chopperferrari @ Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 14:02) *
.........Thanks - can you clarify what you mean by HCA points? Something missing from my original letter? (when I parked I couldn't see any signs, obviously, they have taken a photo of the wall mounted sign, I didn't see it despite my looking around.)


Posts 21 onwards

I don't know how valid they are as have not double checked but it seems you went back to do so.
If the sign that HCA reckons is at HC16 had no suspension sign, that was you home and dry even if council rejected.
But now relies on whether or not you can show it didn't have one.

Posted by: chopperferrari Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 17:05
Post #1361597

QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 14:08) *
QUOTE (chopperferrari @ Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 14:02) *
.........Thanks - can you clarify what you mean by HCA points? Something missing from my original letter? (when I parked I couldn't see any signs, obviously, they have taken a photo of the wall mounted sign, I didn't see it despite my looking around.)


Posts 21 onwards

I don't know how valid they are as have not double checked but it seems you went back to do so.
If the sign that HCA reckons is at HC16 had no suspension sign, that was you home and dry even if council rejected.
But now relies on whether or not you can show it didn't have one.


Ahhh - the white sign on the red & white barrier? If so I think I've got a bit of video footage of me walking all along the bays - would I need to show there isn't one of those signs next to each bay? An I right in thinking both the bays HD10-11 must have that sign? or have I completely missed the point?

Posted by: DancingDad Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 22:30
Post #1361726

This sign
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5152401,-0.078532,3a,90y,63.05h,90.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDHvanEzMGxeDt3vqr767xw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Here it seems to have a suspension notice on it.
Did you get a photo/video when you copped your PCN and did it have the suspension?
And hopefully the words in your photo ?

Posted by: chopperferrari Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 13:30
Post #1363281

Mmmm - I've had a look at the pictures, it does look like that sign is there. Maybe I should just pay it - I've been parking in London for years and never seen such poor signage, the ones the used don't follow the authorised signs locations and designs, so doesn't seem fair to me.

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