PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Old PCN notices never received
Smudgy Pops
post Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 13:51
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 14
Joined: 10 Feb 2018
Member No.: 96,455



Hi,

I received a letter from Cardiff Council yesterday (08/02/18) entitled "advisory notice - unpaid penalty charge". It says that I have an unpaid PCN for a code 34 contravention (being in a bus lane), observed on 20/07/2015! The car is my previous one which I got rid of in November 2015.

The letter says "it is noted that you have not responded to legal, statutory documentation that has been sent to you. The right to appeal against the issue of the Notice, to either the council or the independent adjudicator has been lost. In view of this, the Council now intends to apply to the Traffic Enforcement Centre at Northampton County Court for a warrant to recover the amount of £105." It then goes on to say I have 14 days to pay it, or they may granted a "warrant of control" resulting in a Notice of Enforcement being issued and additional fees being incurred and that they can seize goods/assets to recover the debt.


I've never received any previous communication from the council about this PCN, so I called the Council yesterday and they said that not only was this notice sent to a previous address of mine, but there were another 6 other notices on their way to me about separate bus lane infringements during a 6 month period between March and August 2015, which were also all sent to that same previous address. I moved out of that address in May 2011 and have been living at my current address since December 2013. The person I spoke to at the Council basically said it was my fault because it was my responsibility to update the DVLA with my current address and that it was not their job to try and find me. He said unless I was confident of a successful appeal through the court I should just pay up.

I rang the DVLA yesterday and they said that they've had my current address on record since 13th January 2014, when I renewed my licence. Furthermore, I was perplexed because I remembered paying a PCN notice for bus lane contravention while I was living at my current address. I checked my bank details and can see that I paid it on 8th December 2015, so clearly the Council had my correct address then.

I don't have the log book for my old car to see what the latest address was on it.

Any advice on how I should proceed would be greatly appreciated, as I'm looking down the barrel of about £700 worth of fines that I never received!

Thanks very much



Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
2 Pages V  < 1 2  
Start new topic
Replies (20 - 39)
Advertisement
post Sat, 10 Feb 2018 - 13:51
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
DancingDad
post Sun, 11 Feb 2018 - 12:24
Post #21


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,699
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



Do put the address change in writing, myself and HCA will just need to disagree on that (again smile.gif)

When you speak to council, get a full list of all PCNs, dates and where they are in the process.
Personally, I would be asking them to serve the Order for Recovery on them (if due) but to current address.
And if you have not notified them of that, those OfRs can also disappear.

The process on each PCN for you.
PCN served...by post to the name and address that DVLA notify them is the one on record for the vehicle. ie what was on the registration document at the time.
Assuming nothing happens, like pay or challenge in the time allowed.... Charge Certificate issued.... to same address as on record, they do not check again and have no need to.
Then Order for Recovery when they have applied to a central clearing house/court, TEC in Northhampton, for a warrant to recover outstanding money.
Again to same address.
This Ofr includes a Statutory Declaration that you can sign and send to TEC with the box ticked that says you did not receive PCN (because you didn't as it went to an address where you no longer lived but you do not add that)
TEC then cancel everything back to original PCN and council re-issue a new one.

If you miss the deadline for sending that Stat Dec, it gets right messy, needs an out of time request and now, the incorrect address and why it was incorrect becomes vital. Not to mention bailiffs and costs spiraling out of all proportion to the original PCN.

For whatever reason council have sent you that letter, take it as a blessing and a warning that gives you chance to get ahead of the potential costs and issues.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neil B
post Sun, 11 Feb 2018 - 12:29
Post #22


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,901
Joined: 16 Jan 2008
Member No.: 16,671



I think it's simpler, Witness Statement for these.

(not checked though).

This post has been edited by Neil B: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 - 12:29


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Sun, 11 Feb 2018 - 12:32
Post #23


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,699
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 11 Feb 2018 - 12:29) *
I think it's simpler, Witness Statement for these.

(not checked though).


It's Welsh so may be
But like you, not checked just going on bus lane - SD
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Sun, 11 Feb 2018 - 12:38
Post #24


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 21,545
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



Exploring this point further, do the council have your address or not? It is unclear because the OP has quoted from a letter as opposed to posting it.

If, as they say, the letter is FROM the council as opposed to merely being about a council-related issue but sent by a third party, then the council already hold the OP's address. Therefore, if the OfR has not been sent, then to which address?

IMO, the council cannot use a different address for NTO/CC and OfR unless notified by a competent authority, in this case the owner. To write, even extra-procedurally, to the owner at a different address and stilll claim that the surcharged penalty is due must be an abuse of process and clear evidence of failing to act fairly.

So, while agreeing with DD that it would be prudent to notify the council in writing regarding your address for service (after all, they do not know that you've received their letter, all they know is that they sent it), you should establish first whether an OfR has been sent and when as you might want to modify the letter based on this situation.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neil B
post Sun, 11 Feb 2018 - 13:02
Post #25


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,901
Joined: 16 Jan 2008
Member No.: 16,671



QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 11 Feb 2018 - 12:32) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 11 Feb 2018 - 12:29) *
I think it's simpler, Witness Statement for these.

(not checked though).


It's Welsh so may be
But like you, not checked just going on bus lane - SD

TMA and only not looking cos he'll have one soon enough.

---
On phoning the Council I'm a bit perplexed.
We are faced with a very simple situation on the face of it: A fortunate one with easy remedy.

I understand the age of the debts is a mystery but to phone the Council about the possibility
of earlier OfR(s) risks, imho, confusing and derailing the simple position OP is currently faced with.
If Council decide it's a worthy question and want to track back the history, then how many times
have we seen, when such queries raised, hit that pesky 'hold' button and OPs wait months for
the wheels to start turning again.

If we really want to know if there has been previous registration or even a warrant then OP need
only phone TEC and quote the PCN number. 0300 123 1059.

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 11 Feb 2018 - 12:38) *
IMO, the council cannot use a different address for NTO/CC and OfR unless notified by a competent authority, in this case the owner. To write, even extra-procedurally, to the owner at a different address and stilll claim that the surcharged penalty is due must be an abuse of process and clear evidence of failing to act fairly.

I was thinking along similar lines but keeping schtum because, again, it only throws a spanner in an otherwise simple
situation: We want the OfR issued asap, to facilitate resolution.

If Council have written to current address and this is further confirmed correct by OP writing, then legally the
Council can't register the debt, knowing previous notices have not been served, as they will breach CPR.

But we don't want to argue that, do we? I don't.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Sun, 11 Feb 2018 - 14:01
Post #26


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 21,545
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



I agree, I do not think the OP should enquire about other PCNs, this risks them losing focus.

The issue is this PCN.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Sun, 11 Feb 2018 - 14:07
Post #27


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,699
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 11 Feb 2018 - 14:01) *
I agree, I do not think the OP should enquire about other PCNs, this risks them losing focus.

The issue is this PCN.


But the council have informed the OP that they are in process.
Would seem rather short sighted not to get information on them and sort out priorities.

This PCN is only the one we have anything concrete on, that must be dealt with and can be via an OfR/WS (or SD) as long as steps are taken to ensure that the OfR gets to the right address.
The others? Dunno but a request for a list of dates and notices would not seem to be risking too much.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neil B
post Sun, 11 Feb 2018 - 14:13
Post #28


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,901
Joined: 16 Jan 2008
Member No.: 16,671



QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 11 Feb 2018 - 14:07) *
but a request for a list of dates and notices would not seem to be risking too much.

I'm cool with that bit.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Smudgy Pops
post Sun, 11 Feb 2018 - 18:43
Post #29


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 14
Joined: 10 Feb 2018
Member No.: 96,455



Hi,

The Council do now have my correct address - the "advisory notice" I received (redacted image previously posted) came from them. I live in Cardiff, but don't know how they made the connection to send the notice to my current address.

I'll write to them to advise they should send any future notices re: my previous car to my current address. Still not sure whether to tackle the other notices that are apparently on their way before receiving anything in writing from the Council.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Sun, 11 Feb 2018 - 18:59
Post #30


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 21,545
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



As you will.

And the OfR????
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Smudgy Pops
post Sun, 11 Feb 2018 - 19:23
Post #31


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 14
Joined: 10 Feb 2018
Member No.: 96,455



I'll call tomorrow and check that OfR is the next stage and that this hasn't already been issued.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Sun, 11 Feb 2018 - 22:02
Post #32


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,699
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



QUOTE (Smudgy Pops @ Sun, 11 Feb 2018 - 18:43) *
Hi,

The Council do now have my correct address - the "advisory notice" ..........


Write anyway.
Specifically tell them and specify they MUST use that address for ALL outstanding PCNs against the old car reg number.

Councils do not do joined up writing, all it needs is for one of those to go to bailiff stage (or even Out of Time for WS stage) and you are facing couple of hundred quid for that PCN with little chance of avoiding.
The letter now gives you the best chance of beating that.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neil B
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 01:11
Post #33


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,901
Joined: 16 Jan 2008
Member No.: 16,671



QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 11 Feb 2018 - 14:07) *
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 11 Feb 2018 - 14:01) *
I agree, I do not think the OP should enquire about other PCNs, this risks them losing focus.

The issue is this PCN.


But the council have informed the OP that they are in process.
Would seem rather short sighted not to get information on them and sort out priorities.

This PCN is only the one we have anything concrete on, that must be dealt with and can be via an OfR/WS (or SD) as long as steps are taken to ensure that the OfR gets to the right address.
The others? Dunno but a request for a list of dates and notices would not seem to be risking too much.

In case earlier misunderstood; I'm cool with all of that.

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 11 Feb 2018 - 18:59) *
As you will.

And the OfR????

What OfR? The letter makes it clear the matter is at Charge Certificate stage and the debt has not yet been registered.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 07:29
Post #34


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 21,545
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



Thanks.

The OP had not posted the letter, but has now.

It is badly written and betrays that they don't know their a**e from their elbow as regards procedure. On the one hand it starts by referring to obtaining a warrant in the sum of £105 (!) then refers to registering as a debt, which is a step which should already have been taken before referring to obtaining a warrant.

But on balance (reference to £105 and debt registration) I agree that an OfR has probably not been applied for.

So, given that the authority's procedures are questionable, when the OP writes they must require confirmation that the authority accept the change, they must not leave the matter open-ended otherwise we could still be looking at problems.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Smudgy Pops
post Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 09:50
Post #35


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 14
Joined: 10 Feb 2018
Member No.: 96,455



Thanks - I'll make sure I get confirmation from the Council that they are going to send all further notices and correspondence re: my old car to my current address.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Smudgy Pops
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 12:44
Post #36


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 14
Joined: 10 Feb 2018
Member No.: 96,455



Update: I've e-mailed and sent a recorded delivery letter to the Council instructing them to send any notices or correspondence regarding outstanding PCNs for my old car to my current address.
I've asked them to reply to me confirming they will act on my instructions.

I called the Council yesterday to try and ascertain the status of the PCN currently under discussion; they said that an OfR was issued on 14/04/16 at my old address and that as I hadn't replied to it the matter was now out of their hands and that the next stage was for the Court to write to me directly in 5 - 6 weeks time, including forms TE3 and TE7. The official at the Council then went on to say that in the meantime, i.e. before the Court write to me, the Council will refer the matter to their Recovery department and that I will start to incur costs. He quoted figures of between £188 and £420. I asked whether, in the event of a successful out of time appeal by me (assuming this is indeed where we are in the process), I would still be liable for recovery costs and he said he couldn't say, I would have to ask the TEC.

I called the TEC this morning and they said that the PCN had not been registered with them.

I'm now confused - can the Council proceed directly to a warrant of control if the PCN has never been registered with the TEC?

This post has been edited by Smudgy Pops: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 13:19
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 13:30
Post #37


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,699
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



Council is telling you porkie pies unless TEC have made a mistake, which is unusual but cannot be discounted.

Before an Order for Recovery can be served, the debt must be registered with TEC.
That none has (according to TEC) means that there is no OfR in the system.

Whoever you spoke to at council are also winging it on the actual system.
TEC write to no one except in response to something sent to them.
They do not take 5-6 weeks anyway if they did, most if not all notices received before 4pm are dealt with that day.
TEC do not send out forms except on request.
Costs cannot be incurred above penalty and lawful 50% increase unless and until council registers debt with TEC, get a warrant from TEC and prescribed time limits on Service of OFR and time to respond have expired.
Council cannot instruct bailiffs nor bailiffs act within the law without following the law, all the legal steps that are required.

Are council sending you a list of outstanding PCNs and history for them ?

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 13:32
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neil B
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 13:38
Post #38


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,901
Joined: 16 Jan 2008
Member No.: 16,671



QUOTE (Smudgy Pops @ Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 12:44) *
I'm now confused - can the Council proceed directly to a warrant of control if the PCN has never been registered with the TEC?

Indeed NOT.

The Council cannot issue an OfR until it is, so someone isn't understanding somewhere.

It sounds likely the Council operative is confusing your situation with one where debt has been registered
and beyond time for TE9.

It's no surprise; they are badly trained.
I can't think of anything other than calling back to try and clarify. Particularly, what do they mean by
'the Court will write to you'? Why would they; they know nothing of the debt.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Smudgy Pops
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 16:59
Post #39


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 14
Joined: 10 Feb 2018
Member No.: 96,455



Having spoken to both the Council and the TEC, I have more confidence in the TEC. The lady I spoke to there repeated the PCN number back to me three times as she plugged it into the system and confirmed it was not registered with them.

The Council official I spoke to seemed unsure about the terminology I was using, such as OfR and warrant of control.. I'll call again and try to get some straight answers.


QUOTE
Are council sending you a list of outstanding PCNs and history for them ?


The man I spoke to confirmed over the phone there are a further 6; I asked if they are all at the same stage as the one I've already been notified of and he said yes. When I call back I'll ask them to send me details in writing ASAP.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neil B
post Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 17:02
Post #40


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,901
Joined: 16 Jan 2008
Member No.: 16,671



QUOTE (Smudgy Pops @ Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 16:59) *
Having spoken to both the Council and the TEC, I have more confidence in the TEC.

You've got that right.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V  < 1 2
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Friday, 22nd June 2018 - 13:12
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.