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LATE APPEAL MAGISTRATES CONVICTION FTF 6 POINTS
Wheels
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 23:53
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As if I don't have enough on my plate! I went to court in August on behalf of my daughter for a speeding offence which was her ex partner. We did not receive any paperwork only a court summons. Due to my daughters mental health she had a melt down and could not attend. Very long story short. I got doctors letter confirming her issues, a copy of my appointeeship and explained. They decided to carry out the trial in her absence and although they didn't charge her for the speeding and I supplied the driver details, as early as was reasonably practical, she was given 6 points.

My questions:
1) if we did not receive paperwork, how can my daughter be guilty of failing to respond to something she did not receive?
2) if a person due to mental health issues needs somebody else to manage their affairs, is it right to then punish them for the inability to manage their affairs by giving them 6 points, is this not penalising them for being disabled, ie, disability discrimination?
3) we did not receive full information in court including all the letters allegedly sent etc, not that I realised this was a requirement until researching after the case?
4) if my daughter has a melt down and cannot attend and the trial is held in her absence, (this happened more than once) is it a fair trial if she has not been given the opportunity to present her own case?
5) what would be possible reasons for allowing a late appeal in the circumstances?

We have now received another single justice notice for speeding and ftf, which I have already sent in the reply back in March giving driver details. I have proof of posting, I did have photocopy of the form too, but I can't find it at present, but given the lack of sympathy for my daughter's case and the fact that they didn't care that we didn't receive the paperwork previously I don't hold out much hope in them accepting I sent off this one, despite the proof. They were pretty horrid in court. Furthermore, there are apparently a couple of other fines that have been issued, not that anybody mentioned them, for which we have received absolutely no paperwork whatsoever, I am awaiting details, but this is all going to add up. Yes we've had some postal issues, yes sometimes the dogs rip the mail apart and my daughter doesn't open mail and stuffs it in the drawer, but I do my best to make regular checks in all possible drawers, cupboards etc. I'm at my wits end and I am totally overwhelmed, I still haven't recovered from the court experience and now I have all this to contend with?

My daughter's car is her lifeline, she cannot afford to lose her licence, if I'm in too much pain and can't get to her, at least she knows she can get to me or other family/friend, whichever is quickest if she's in a tiz.

Any thoughts gratefully received.

Wheels icon_hang.gif

This post has been edited by Wheels: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 23:58
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post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 23:53
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Logician
post Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 08:45
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QUOTE (Wheels @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 09:38) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 06:00) *
I think you’ll struggle to get an appeal heard on the first case, I can’t see you have any good reason for not appealing in time. You need to be much better prepared for the second case, you need to be sure if it’s non receipt of the reply or that they found it unsatisfactory for some other reason. Can you ask the nominated driver if they received anything at all, better still if they will agree to be a witness to the fact that they were indeed driving and thus your daughter had nothing to gain by not replying.
I think he would for both cases? The delay in replying is discussing it with my daughter, when she's in the correct frame of mind to discuss it, her fear of appearing in court and having a melt down in front of others and now realising that that is a better option than losing her licence. I wanted to appeal immediately, but on advice of a friend that points for failing to provide details is not so frowned upon for insurance purposes than speeding or red light and it wouldn't affect her as badly for renewal, she thought she'd just take it, it has been a long road working with her to see that she shouldn't take a guilty when she's innocent because it will come back and bite you later, which it is doing now.


I am afraid that the advice you received from a friend is entirely wrong, insurance companies do not like failing to provide convictions at all, they wonder what was so bad about a person's driving that they preferred to accept 6 points rather than admit to being the driver. Speeding on the other hand is something that many drivers have had points for, and those who haven't will probably get them sooner or later.



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Atrixblue.-MFR-.
post Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 16:29
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QUOTE (Wheels @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 09:38) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 06:00) *
I think you’ll struggle to get an appeal heard on the first case, I can’t see you have any good reason for not appealing in time.

You need to be much better prepared for the second case, you need to be sure if it’s non receipt of the reply or that they found it unsatisfactory for some other reason. Can you ask the nominated driver if they received anything at all, better still if they will agree to be a witness to the fact that they were indeed driving and thus your daughter had nothing to gain by not replying.


I think he would for both cases? The delay in replying is discussing it with my daughter, when she's in the correct frame of mind to discuss it, her fear of appearing in court and having a melt down in front of others and now realising that that is a better option than losing her licence. I wanted to appeal immediately, but on advice of a friend that points for failing to provide details is not so frowned upon for insurance purposes than speeding or red light and it wouldn't affect her as badly for renewal, she thought she'd just take it, it has been a long road working with her to see that she shouldn't take a guilty when she's innocent because it will come back and bite you later, which it is doing now.

QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 23:09) *
QUOTE (Wheels @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 18:01) *
As I said above, I believe that if the issue is under control for driving purposes she does not need to declare it? Although now I will review the info again and make sure I am correct, or there could be more issues to address. rolleyes.gif

She needs to declare it no matter what if she has received a formal diagnosis of bipolar. If her GP's opinion is that it doesn't affect her driving then it will likely be reissued and costs nothing.


Ok, thank you, I better get some advice on this, because I don't want to something else to floor her. I know people who have been driving for years with mental health diagnoses, some stable, some definitely not, none of whom have declared anything to the DVLA and when I checked last it did say you don't need to report it if it's under control. As she struggles to go out in the first place and is less likely to step a foot out whilst having a melt down, there is less likelihood of her driving distressed, but I will check again.

The Official DVLA guidance on Bipolar is "you MUST tell us about a diagnosis of Bipolar". Its not about being stable its about fitness to drive, You must Fill in form M1. Depression is one you must also declare especially if suicidal thoughts and attempts have been made or planned.

When you say your daughter has melt downs even walking outside the door, then this MUST apply to when she is driving and encounter a stressful situation like getting lost or in the wrong lane etc.

After having a brief ban for in10 (no insurance) back in 2005 for my first driving offence, (had a cranky judge who didn't want to listen to reason and threw out my and lawyers defense in its entirety) I can tell you insurers do not like certain license Codes I had in10 on my license from 2005 to 2009 and even getting an insurer by and broker to cover me on a bog standard fiesta 1.3 was extremely difficult and expensive (over 2k back then!) actually a MR59 which I think failure to furnish falls under? is worse than 3 points for lights and signs and speeding codes.
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The Rookie
post Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 18:11
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MS90 is for failing to furnish.


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Wheels
post Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 21:57
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 09:42) *
QUOTE (Wheels @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 09:38) *
...that points for failing to provide details is not so frowned upon for insurance purposes than speeding or red light and it wouldn't affect her as badly for renewal, she thought she'd just take it, it has been a long road working with her to see that she shouldn't take a guilty when she's innocent because it will come back and bite you later, which it is doing now.

An MS90 will likely load more than a 'simple' speeding/red light offence. (As the insurer won't know what actual offence is being 'hidden') The underlying offence would likely have been a 3 points fixed penalty unless it was particularly serious.

FWIW there is a chance of an appeal being allowed but it gets more difficult by the day.


I thought getting 6 points would be worse than 3, but someone told her that ftf wasn't as serious as the red light, or speeding for that matter, probably her ex partner who was the guilty party!

What does FWIW mean?
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Jlc
post Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 22:00
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For What It’s Worth


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Wheels
post Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 22:15
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QUOTE (Logician @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 09:45) *
QUOTE (Wheels @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 09:38) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 06:00) *
I think you’ll struggle to get an appeal heard on the first case, I can’t see you have any good reason for not appealing in time. You need to be much better prepared for the second case, you need to be sure if it’s non receipt of the reply or that they found it unsatisfactory for some other reason. Can you ask the nominated driver if they received anything at all, better still if they will agree to be a witness to the fact that they were indeed driving and thus your daughter had nothing to gain by not replying.
I think he would for both cases? The delay in replying is discussing it with my daughter, when she's in the correct frame of mind to discuss it, her fear of appearing in court and having a melt down in front of others and now realising that that is a better option than losing her licence. I wanted to appeal immediately, but on advice of a friend that points for failing to provide details is not so frowned upon for insurance purposes than speeding or red light and it wouldn't affect her as badly for renewal, she thought she'd just take it, it has been a long road working with her to see that she shouldn't take a guilty when she's innocent because it will come back and bite you later, which it is doing now.


I am afraid that the advice you received from a friend is entirely wrong, insurance companies do not like failing to provide convictions at all, they wonder what was so bad about a person's driving that they preferred to accept 6 points rather than admit to being the driver. Speeding on the other hand is something that many drivers have had points for, and those who haven't will probably get them sooner or later.


Yes, exactly, and I wanted to appeal immediately, as I mentioned above, I think it was probably her then partner who was guilty of the offence and trying to make it seem less than it was? As it was not my daughter driving, there was no reason for the form not to be returned had it been received. Her partner was agreeable to his details being put forward and would have given a witness statement if necessary, but I didn't think it would be necessary, I thought they'd understand. Simply she wasn't driving, didn't get the form & the details furnished as soon as poss? How wrong I was.


QUOTE (Atrixblue.-MFR-. @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 17:29) *
QUOTE (Wheels @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 09:38) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 06:00) *
I think you’ll struggle to get an appeal heard on the first case, I can’t see you have any good reason for not appealing in time.

You need to be much better prepared for the second case, you need to be sure if it’s non receipt of the reply or that they found it unsatisfactory for some other reason. Can you ask the nominated driver if they received anything at all, better still if they will agree to be a witness to the fact that they were indeed driving and thus your daughter had nothing to gain by not replying.


I think he would for both cases? The delay in replying is discussing it with my daughter, when she's in the correct frame of mind to discuss it, her fear of appearing in court and having a melt down in front of others and now realising that that is a better option than losing her licence. I wanted to appeal immediately, but on advice of a friend that points for failing to provide details is not so frowned upon for insurance purposes than speeding or red light and it wouldn't affect her as badly for renewal, she thought she'd just take it, it has been a long road working with her to see that she shouldn't take a guilty when she's innocent because it will come back and bite you later, which it is doing now.

QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 23:09) *
QUOTE (Wheels @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 18:01) *
As I said above, I believe that if the issue is under control for driving purposes she does not need to declare it? Although now I will review the info again and make sure I am correct, or there could be more issues to address. rolleyes.gif

She needs to declare it no matter what if she has received a formal diagnosis of bipolar. If her GP's opinion is that it doesn't affect her driving then it will likely be reissued and costs nothing.


Ok, thank you, I better get some advice on this, because I don't want to something else to floor her. I know people who have been driving for years with mental health diagnoses, some stable, some definitely not, none of whom have declared anything to the DVLA and when I checked last it did say you don't need to report it if it's under control. As she struggles to go out in the first place and is less likely to step a foot out whilst having a melt down, there is less likelihood of her driving distressed, but I will check again.

The Official DVLA guidance on Bipolar is "you MUST tell us about a diagnosis of Bipolar". Its not about being stable its about fitness to drive, You must Fill in form M1. Depression is one you must also declare especially if suicidal thoughts and attempts have been made or planned.

When you say your daughter has melt downs even walking outside the door, then this MUST apply to when she is driving and encounter a stressful situation like getting lost or in the wrong lane etc.

After having a brief ban for in10 (no insurance) back in 2005 for my first driving offence, (had a cranky judge who didn't want to listen to reason and threw out my and lawyers defense in its entirety) I can tell you insurers do not like certain license Codes I had in10 on my license from 2005 to 2009 and even getting an insurer by and broker to cover me on a bog standard fiesta 1.3 was extremely difficult and expensive (over 2k back then!) actually a MR59 which I think failure to furnish falls under? is worse than 3 points for lights and signs and speeding codes.


I better get on to the DVLA then! My daughter has melt downs that prevent her from walking out of the door, so she doesn't get as far as the car. When she is in the car she is not usually alone, if she had to come to someone for support she focuses on getting there and not on the panic, we have a close nit support network so she doesn't have to go far. If it gets too much she pulls over and does breathing exercises etc. So it doesn't affect her ability to drive safely. Yes I thought the 6 points would be deemed worse, but nobody listened to me! :-(


QUOTE (Jlc @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 23:00) *
For What It’s Worth

Thank you.
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Wheels
post Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 22:27
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So please is there a criteria that needs to be met for a late appeal to be accepted, before I get the chance to outline the appeal, because I should get it in pronto and don't know what points I should include?
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southpaw82
post Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 23:01
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QUOTE (Wheels @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 23:27) *
So please is there a criteria that needs to be met for a late appeal to be accepted, before I get the chance to outline the appeal, because I should get it in pronto and don't know what points I should include?

There will be guidance but since it’s the weekend and I’ve not brought my copy of Wilkinsons home nor committed it to memory you will have to wait. What I can say is that being able to make the appeal but choosing not to do so isn’t a great start.

This post has been edited by southpaw82: Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 23:02


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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Wheels
post Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 11:55
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 00:01) *
QUOTE (Wheels @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 23:27) *
So please is there a criteria that needs to be met for a late appeal to be accepted, before I get the chance to outline the appeal, because I should get it in pronto and don't know what points I should include?

There will be guidance but since it’s the weekend and I’ve not brought my copy of Wilkinsons home nor committed it to memory you will have to wait. What I can say is that being able to make the appeal but choosing not to do so isn’t a great start.


Thank you, I'm late already, so a bit more it will have to be. Yes I wanted too, but arguing with my daughter about it was the issue, it is after all her decision, despite my best efforts to do it, she has legal capacity and therefore I cannot interfere with her choice. Hopefully at least now she realises what's at stake and just maybe she might listen more in the future. 🙏
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The Rookie
post Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 12:42
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As a rule of thumb late appeals are accepted where either
1/ There’s was a good reason that the defendant couldn’t appeal earlier
2/ New information has come to light since that renders the conviction unsafe

There are of course sub groups within those but the vast majority fall into those two, neither of which appear to apply unless a court accept her illness rendered it impossible for her to appeal earlier which you may struggle with.

Any first appeal will see the case heard anew, what happened in the previous hearing will be a nullity. You’ll have to convince the judge that no S172 request was served. At that stage it would be worth minimising the effects of her condition in my opinion as it renders an oversight more likley.


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S172's
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Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

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Wheels
post Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 22:14
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 13:42) *
As a rule of thumb late appeals are accepted where either
1/ There’s was a good reason that the defendant couldn’t appeal earlier
2/ New information has come to light since that renders the conviction unsafe

There are of course sub groups within those but the vast majority fall into those two, neither of which appear to apply unless a court accept her illness rendered it impossible for her to appeal earlier which you may struggle with.

Any first appeal will see the case heard anew, what happened in the previous hearing will be a nullity. You’ll have to convince the judge that no S172 request was served. At that stage it would be worth minimising the effects of her condition in my opinion as it renders an oversight more likley.


A friend of mine asked if her ex partner may have taken the paperwork away so it wasn't found, he denies this, but I hadn't considered that before? If this turned out to be true, would this be new information that could clear my daughter, would this be classed as perverting the course of justice? I honestly don't think he did, but I'm just thinking out loud?
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southpaw82
post Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 22:27
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QUOTE (Wheels @ Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 23:14) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 13:42) *
As a rule of thumb late appeals are accepted where either
1/ There’s was a good reason that the defendant couldn’t appeal earlier
2/ New information has come to light since that renders the conviction unsafe

There are of course sub groups within those but the vast majority fall into those two, neither of which appear to apply unless a court accept her illness rendered it impossible for her to appeal earlier which you may struggle with.

Any first appeal will see the case heard anew, what happened in the previous hearing will be a nullity. You’ll have to convince the judge that no S172 request was served. At that stage it would be worth minimising the effects of her condition in my opinion as it renders an oversight more likley.


A friend of mine asked if her ex partner may have taken the paperwork away so it wasn't found, he denies this, but I hadn't considered that before? If this turned out to be true, would this be new information that could clear my daughter, would this be classed as perverting the course of justice? I honestly don't think he did, but I'm just thinking out loud?

What evidence do you have of that?


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The Rookie
post Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 06:59
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QUOTE (Wheels @ Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 23:14) *
A friend of mine asked if her ex partner may have taken the paperwork away so it wasn't found, he denies this, but I hadn't considered that before? If this turned out to be true, would this be new information that could clear my daughter, would this be classed as perverting the course of justice? I honestly don't think he did, but I'm just thinking out loud?

Whoa.....where they in the habit of opening each others mail?
1/ What new information? Its at best a guess, at worst a malicious rumour
2/ How would he know what it was if it wasn't opened (most forces use plain envelopes), and if she had opened it then that makes it worse as she would already know it had been received (served) removing any defence at all.
3/ If she had already opened and read it then I'd struggle to see a PCOJ in that anyway as she was well aware of it, in fact if she knew it was taken there could be an argument they engaged in it together for convenience (not true I'm sure, just it's an argument that could be made, but not something you want being suggested).



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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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Wheels
post Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 14:14
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 23:27) *
QUOTE (Wheels @ Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 23:14) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 13:42) *
As a rule of thumb late appeals are accepted where either
1/ There’s was a good reason that the defendant couldn’t appeal earlier
2/ New information has come to light since that renders the conviction unsafe

There are of course sub groups within those but the vast majority fall into those two, neither of which appear to apply unless a court accept her illness rendered it impossible for her to appeal earlier which you may struggle with.

Any first appeal will see the case heard anew, what happened in the previous hearing will be a nullity. You’ll have to convince the judge that no S172 request was served. At that stage it would be worth minimising the effects of her condition in my opinion as it renders an oversight more likley.


A friend of mine asked if her ex partner may have taken the paperwork away so it wasn't found, he denies this, but I hadn't considered that before? If this turned out to be true, would this be new information that could clear my daughter, would this be classed as perverting the course of justice? I honestly don't think he did, but I'm just thinking out loud?

What evidence do you have of that?



I don't have any & don't think he would, but my friend put the thought in my head?

QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 07:59) *
QUOTE (Wheels @ Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 23:14) *
A friend of mine asked if her ex partner may have taken the paperwork away so it wasn't found, he denies this, but I hadn't considered that before? If this turned out to be true, would this be new information that could clear my daughter, would this be classed as perverting the course of justice? I honestly don't think he did, but I'm just thinking out loud?

Whoa.....where they in the habit of opening each others mail?
1/ What new information? Its at best a guess, at worst a malicious rumour
2/ How would he know what it was if it wasn't opened (most forces use plain envelopes), and if she had opened it then that makes it worse as she would already know it had been received (served) removing any defence at all.
3/ If she had already opened and read it then I'd struggle to see a PCOJ in that anyway as she was well aware of it, in fact if she knew it was taken there could be an argument they engaged in it together for convenience (not true I'm sure, just it's an argument that could be made, but not something you want being suggested).


I don't think he would, but my friend said what if he knew he'd done it and then watched the mail and nabbed it? Like you say it's not identifiable from the outside of the envelope, so I can put that out of my mind & I know my daughter wouldn't collude in that behaviour because she's as annoyed about it as I am, not just the situation, but his lack of respect for the road. She values her licence & would be too quick to throw him under the bus. Thank goodness.
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southpaw82
post Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 14:14
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QUOTE (Wheels @ Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 15:08) *
I don't have any & don't think he would, but my friend put the thought in my head?

Well, courts work on evidence. Your daughter can’t just pitch up and say “well, he might have done this or that” and expect the court to find that it was so.

As to being out of time, there is a discretion for the court to extend the time limit even after it has expired. Your daughter would need to show good reason for it being out of time. If you tell us those reasons it may be possible to give some guidance as to the prospects of success.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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Wheels
post Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 14:42
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 15:14) *
QUOTE (Wheels @ Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 15:08) *
I don't have any & don't think he would, but my friend put the thought in my head?

Well, courts work on evidence. Your daughter can’t just pitch up and say “well, he might have done this or that” and expect the court to find that it was so.

As to being out of time, there is a discretion for the court to extend the time limit even after it has expired. Your daughter would need to show good reason for it being out of time. If you tell us those reasons it may be possible to give some guidance as to the prospects of success.


The only reasons I have is her anxiety & her not wanting her to have the distress of going to court, time taken to discuss it between the ups and downs, firstly not wanting to, based on the false info of a friend, then being in the frame of mind to have a sensible discussion, which delayed the it immensely, me trying not to be the pushy parent who then ends up pushing her in the opposite direction, followed by the other things coming through that need attention. She would rather not go to court at all and taking the points was weighed up against that, but now I pointed out she may lose her licence then the lesser issue would be going to court. It's mainly about mood & anxiety delays really? Although the fact given her issues they tried her in her absence, perhaps isn't fair, I genuinely believed they were going to drop the case and continued with a trial instead.
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Dwaynedouglas
post Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 07:46
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I can't recall it being answered about all of the Mental Health issues and DVLA, just the Bipolar, but these links here should make it clearer:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/psychiatric-dis...y-or-depression
https://www.gov.uk/bipolar-disorder-and-driving

Regarding being an appointee, it looks at though this is only for benefits.

https://www.gov.uk/become-appointee-for-som...aiming-benefits

This includes the BF56 form you referred to.

Someone more learned than myself can comment on whether criminal court allows non-legally trained representatives.

This factsheet may help you find your way through the Court System and Mental Health though:

https://www.rethink.org/resources/c/crimina...d-mental-health

As you can imagine, there's a huge disclaimer here about me not being able to verify the accuracy of the documents, but (hopefully) review by the forum should be able to establish the veracity of their content.




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I'm not a lawyer or legally trained, my opinion is based on my experience - follow at your own risk.
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flexeh
post Yesterday, 08:28
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QUOTE (Wheels @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 18:01) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 11:27) *
QUOTE (Wheels @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 10:53) *
I thought that given the difficulties the judge/magistrate would have used their justice powers to decide it was not in the public interest or purse and dismiss the case and this would have been a reasonable adjustment in the circumstances? My naivety clearly.

I am appointed to deal with her affairs with dwp, council tax, HMRC etc and her money gets paid straight to me to manage as she doesn't deal with things well, can't budget and has spontaneous spending behaviour as part of her Bipolar condition, which has racked up debt in the past, especially when she's in a manic phase.

It’s not within the court’s powers to dismiss the case because it feels that would be in the public interest. I’m still not clear on your appointment - is it as mental health act receiver or similar? Unless it is a formal arrangement you need to be careful attending court for her, particularly if she is not with you. You have no right to represent her, it seems, so court will hear you as a matter of discretion, not right.

It would also be useful, by introducing more clarity, if you could refrain from using “we” when it ought to be “she” or “my daughter”. It may seem picky but she is the one being sent notices and accused of an offence and it helps to understand the circumstances if that is accurately portrayed.

It seems there are two offences in play here, is that correct?

1. An offence of failure to furnish for which she has been convicted and sentenced.
2. An offence of speeding and failure to furnish for which a summons (or similar) has been received?

The first offence

The only options here realistically are to accept the verdict or appeal to the Crown Court. Unless she entered a guilty plea she can appeal against both conviction and sentence. She has 21 days from sentence to do this. An appeal will result in a rehearing of the case in the Crown Court, where her defence can be put again. At the moment it’s not possible to advise on prospects of success, as we don’t have enough information. She is at risk of further costs if she loses. Representations can be made about sentence again if she also appeals against sentence.

The second offence

Presumably the s 172 notice was addressed to your daughter but it sounds like you completed and returned it. What are the prosecution alleging? That the notice was not returned at all or that it was returned but was not properly completed? If your daughter wants to defend this allegation then it’s important to know what is alleged and what evidence there is to counter that.


The appointeeship is given by the government/dwp to manage paperwork and benefits etc and is assessed at home and they issue a BF57 which confirms my appointeeship and I can provide to other agencies as proof of this if required.

1) my daughter pled not guilty to both charges and I am over the 21 days for appeal, so I'm interested in what would constitute a good reason to accept a late appeal, before getting to the actual appeal?

2) they've sent out a single justice notice which would indicate that they have not received the original paperwork returned. So an online pleading not guilty to both has been done, my daughter wasn't the driver and I completed the original form, which she signed and we have proof of posting.

For clarity I help my daughter with all things, therefore when I say we in a legal context I mean I will have done the paperwork part, read it to her so that she knows what I have put and signs that she agrees with it. If I am dealing with benefits etc as appointee I sign on her behalf, she does not need to sign anything.


QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 14:38) *
Has she declared the bipolar to the DVLA? If she has, they have assessed her and said she is fit to drive then that answers the "should she be driving" part in court.

If she hasn't and you are making a lot of noise about her health issues she should really declare ASAP. She can continue to drive whilst they assess her unless she knows of a reason why not.


As I said above, I believe that if the issue is under control for driving purposes she does not need to declare it? Although now I will review the info again and make sure I am correct, or there could be more issues to address. rolleyes.gif


You should still declare and let them make the assumptions, especially as your trying to imply that the courts and system should take into consideration her condition. The only way that you can fully be transparent on this, is to ensure its reported and the DVLA are happy with her being on the road.

If they are not, its not all doom and gloom, as if her condition is as bad as you are suggesting, she may be entitled to free travel via the disabled concessionary pass scheme
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southpaw82
post Yesterday, 10:52
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QUOTE (Wheels @ Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 15:42) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 15:14) *
QUOTE (Wheels @ Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 15:08) *
I don't have any & don't think he would, but my friend put the thought in my head?

Well, courts work on evidence. Your daughter can’t just pitch up and say “well, he might have done this or that” and expect the court to find that it was so.

As to being out of time, there is a discretion for the court to extend the time limit even after it has expired. Your daughter would need to show good reason for it being out of time. If you tell us those reasons it may be possible to give some guidance as to the prospects of success.


The only reasons I have is her anxiety & her not wanting her to have the distress of going to court, time taken to discuss it between the ups and downs, firstly not wanting to, based on the false info of a friend, then being in the frame of mind to have a sensible discussion, which delayed the it immensely, me trying not to be the pushy parent who then ends up pushing her in the opposite direction, followed by the other things coming through that need attention. She would rather not go to court at all and taking the points was weighed up against that, but now I pointed out she may lose her licence then the lesser issue would be going to court. It's mainly about mood & anxiety delays really? Although the fact given her issues they tried her in her absence, perhaps isn't fair, I genuinely believed they were going to drop the case and continued with a trial instead.

They’re not great reasons but they’re all she has. She has little to lose by putting the form in and seeing if leave will be granted on the papers. If it requires a hearing, and that hearing is contested by the prosecution, she’s at risk of costs if she loses.

I don’t see any real difficulty with the case being heard in her absence. She knew when it was but did not attend. If the court’s response was to drop it nobody would ever attend court!


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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