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Charge Certificate notice - do I need to pay?
explorer87
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 13:52
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Hi all,

First post here so please go easy.

On the 22nd May 2018 I performed a contravention 50(J) which is performing a prohibited turn from Barnet Council. The fine was £130 with a 14 day 50% discount period, which would rise to £195 if paid after.

I appealed this on the grounds that the signs of this prohibited turn were restricted to which it got rejected on the 4th July.

I then had a further 14 days discount period. However at this stage this is where it becomes tricky. The letter stated that I had two options:

1. To pay the fine for £65 with 14 days and the matter is closed (or £130 within 28 days)
2. To lodge an appeal with an independent adjudicator.

On the 17th July I paid the £65, but also appealed with the adjudicator on the same day thinking if the free appeal gets accepted I will be entitled to a refund of the £65. Unfortunately one week the appeal got rejected and the letter advised me to pay the charge. As I had already paid the charge at the discounted rate I didn't think there was anything further I needed to do.

However last week Barnet Council wrote to me advising that since the appeal has been rejected and it is more than 28 days since the 4th July, I now owe a further £130. Failure to pay within 14 will incur a further charge of £8 and a debt passed onto the county court.

I spoke to them on the phone this morning and they advised me that the letter on the 4th July states you can either pay the charge or appeal. Since I have done both, this apparently re opened the case despite paying the £65 charge at the discounted rate.

Please advise what your thoughts are at this stage.

Many thanks
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post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 13:52
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Neil B
post Mon, 1 Oct 2018 - 22:03
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 1 Oct 2018 - 22:17) *
OP, sorry if this hurts, but PAY ATTENTION to detail.

Erm -


QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 1 Oct 2018 - 22:17) *
There is only one form: the NOR was dated Mon. 2 July ( if true, I still don't think we've seen this).

We have and it was.

Mustard; what is your view on this currently?

You know Barnet and they seem to be missing the blindingly obvious on this one.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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explorer87
post Mon, 1 Oct 2018 - 23:40
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 1 Oct 2018 - 22:17) *
OP, sorry if this hurts, but PAY ATTENTION to detail.

The way you play fast and loose with the dates of the NOR, which is THE document, makes my head spin.

There is ONE date and ONE only. Stop using other variants.

THE date is the date of the NOR.

I've seen you refer to 'I got it' on 2nd, ' it got rejected on the 4th July' , to the most recent 'I was issued a notice of rejection letter on the 2nd July'.

There is only one form: the NOR was dated Mon. 2 July ( if true, I still don't think we've seen this).

Then everyone knows it was served on 4th and can calculate any other relevant dates.


Mon 2nd July was date of NOR, paid on 17th July. (reason why I thought it was 4th July is because 17th July is within 14 days of this but seems as I had until the 23rd July to pay at the discounted rate)

QUOTE (Mr Mustard @ Wed, 26 Sep 2018 - 21:00) *
The OP sent me these to upload. His letter to the council saying this

I am writing to challenge the Charge Certificate that was incorrectly sent to me on the 14th September 2018.

As you are aware I had paid the PCN on the 17th July 2018 within the discount period, and by your own website's admission when a penalty charge is paid I am admitting liability and therefore can't appeal the charge. Additionally on the Notice of Rejection letter dated 2nd July 2018 it says that if I pay the PCN at the discounted or regular rate the case will be closed.

Unfortunately an appeal was made by error after the payment of the PCN had been made. Your colleagues over the phone have stated that when you appeal after you make payment you are reopening the case. However it does not state this in any of your terms and conditions that this will be the case.


I therefore trust that no further payment demands will be made in regards to this case. I look forward to hearing from you in due course.

has been responded to. The original Notice of Rejection is also exhibited.

https://ibb.co/hog6bp
https://ibb.co/jOnewp
https://ibb.co/nFriNU
https://ibb.co/npgHhU
https://ibb.co/fHU3NU
https://ibb.co/bwvchU


HCA see post here for official documents.
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hcandersen
post Tue, 2 Oct 2018 - 08:06
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I would embed the first page of the NOR, in this way everyone can see the key date. Otherwise it's just another unreferenced link.

And when you refer to payment you must hit them straight between the eyes with both barrels or lead them by the nose, whichever is your expression of choice!


The NOR was dated ****
It allowed payment of £65 in full settlement of the authority's claim 'within 14 days of the date of service of this letter', in other words no later than 18 July. (Service on 4th, 'within' starts counting after the reference date so 5th is day 1)
I have an acknowledgement of payment £65 from the council dated ***.

Not your shorthand version expecting others to work it out.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 - 08:06
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Mr Mustard
post Sat, 6 Oct 2018 - 09:13
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The OP has asked me to upload the attached. The tribunal letter is dated 5 October.

https://ibb.co/jvSOde
https://ibb.co/hENZjK
https://ibb.co/n1Qn4K

I still have to put my thoughts up on this scenario but haven't had the time yet.


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All advice given by me on PePiPoo is on a pro bono basis (i.e. free). PePiPoo relies on Donations so do donate if you can. Sometimes I will, in addition, personally offer to represent you at London Tribunals (i.e. within greater London only) & if you wish me to I will ask you to make a voluntary donation, if the Appeal is won, directly to the North London Hospice.
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hcandersen
post Sat, 6 Oct 2018 - 10:20
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Which is why I said the OP should make dates specific and not refer to 'within' or 'after'.

The council's submission was factually wrong, the OP did 'respond to the council's offer to settle the case at the discounted amount stated above', contrary to what is stated and implied in their submission.

Adjudicators don't like false submissions.

Maybe another 'typo' for which they can apologise!

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Sat, 6 Oct 2018 - 10:21
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Mad Mick V
post Sat, 6 Oct 2018 - 11:19
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I presume this one is for Briardale Gardens ----the bit about signage placement/location might be a possible ground:-

2180335488



The Appellant, Mr R. Jankel, attended a Personal Hearing before me on 29th September 2018 to explain his contention personally.

The Enforcement Authority assert that at the relevant time, on the material date, vehicle executed a manoeuvre contrary to signage prohibiting the same [No Right Turn].

The Appellant denies liability for the ensuing Penalty Charge Notice on the basis of the prevailing circumstances/challenge as stated in his written representations, which he reiterated and comprehensively detailed at the Hearing.

The Enforcement Authority who assert that the said vehicle was so driven contrary to, and during the operative period of, a restriction are obliged to adduce evidence to the requisite standard to substantiate that assertion.

The evidence upon which the Enforcement Authority rely comprises the certified copy Penalty Charge Notice, extracts of governing Traffic Management Order provisions, and contemporaneous photographic evidence: CCTV footage and still frames taken there-from revealing the said vehicle in situ, and images of the applicable signage notifying motorists of the restriction.

The contemporaneous photographic capture was examined (repeatedly) to evaluate the allegation in conjunction with the Appellant's representations; the footage shows the said vehicle executing a right hand turn, completing the manoeuvre 15 seconds prior to the restriction's end time according to the camera's integral time-piece.

The time-piece upon which the motorist places reliance may not be as accurately defined; I therefore import the principal of de minimis to this situation.

Further, I note that the date of capture of the signage images adduced is subsequent to the date in question; I know not is such signage was in position at the relevant time, but if so I find the sign mounted on the left hand side at such a position as to cause ambiguity since it is not, as prescribed, near/opposite the road to which it relates.

Whilst it is incumbent upon a motorist to consult signage and comply with restrictions, it is incumbent upon an enforcement authority to ensure the signage implementing the terms of a Traffic Management Order is adequate to communicate the nature and extent of the restriction to motorists. I do not find that to be the case in this instance.

Evidentially I am not satisfied that the contravention occurred,, accordingly I allow this Appeal.
------------------------------

Mick
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explorer87
post Sat, 6 Oct 2018 - 19:04
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 6 Oct 2018 - 11:20) *
Which is why I said the OP should make dates specific and not refer to 'within' or 'after'.

The council's submission was factually wrong, the OP did 'respond to the council's offer to settle the case at the discounted amount stated above', contrary to what is stated and implied in their submission.

Adjudicators don't like false submissions.

Maybe another 'typo' for which they can apologise!


So at this stage who do you suggest I contact and write a letter stating what exactly?
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hcandersen
post Sat, 6 Oct 2018 - 21:44
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See post #71.

Or write to the authority.

Dear Mr Parking,
Case No. ******
On the basis of the false assertions made by you to the adjudicator in the above case the adjudicator found in your favour, the false statement being that 'the ...........'

However, your records show different i.e. I paid the penalty demanded on ** which was within the period specified in your NOR dated .... i.e. before ***.

If you persist in pursuing me for an additional penalty, I shall submit a witness statement to the effect that the 'penalty.....has been paid'. The matter would then be referred to the adjudicator for directions and I doubt whether they would be enamoured of the authority when they see that they were misled by you in your submission which was materially false, see enclosed copy highlighted as appropriate.


Or whatever you want to do.
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Mr Mustard
post Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 21:34
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on behalf of the OP

https://ibb.co/kouXEU


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All advice given by me on PePiPoo is on a pro bono basis (i.e. free). PePiPoo relies on Donations so do donate if you can. Sometimes I will, in addition, personally offer to represent you at London Tribunals (i.e. within greater London only) & if you wish me to I will ask you to make a voluntary donation, if the Appeal is won, directly to the North London Hospice.
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Enceladus
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 10:12
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 6 Oct 2018 - 22:44) *
..........................
If you persist in pursuing me for an additional penalty, I shall submit a witness statement to the effect that the 'penalty.....has been paid'. The matter would then be referred to the adjudicator for directions and I doubt whether they would be enamoured of the authority when they see that they were misled by you in your submission which was materially false, see enclosed copy highlighted as appropriate.
..........................

The original contravention was moving traffic so a Statutory Declaration would be required. However an SD has no option for 'payment already made'.

The issue appears to be that the Adjudicator proceeded to hear the case when it had in fact been closed by the making of the £65 payment. Presumably because the Council failed to notify the Tribunal. The Adjudicator ordered £130 to be paid, so a balance due of a further £65. This wasn't paid and so a Charge Cert was issued. This should have been for £130 but was in fact for £195.

Be interesting to see what amount shows up on the Order for Recovery?

Alas I'm not sure you have any proper route to get the matter back before the Adjudicator. Your deadline for a review expired weeks ago.
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hcandersen
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 12:16
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What is certain is that endless iterations here won't bring a conclusion.

OP, write to the authority. Tell them they misled the adjudicator by telling a lie. It might have been an error, but so what?

Get this on the table and see what they say.

If they persist, then use their complaints procedure.

No one in a senior position at the council would condone lying, and profiting thereby, to the adjudicator.
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explorer87
post Sun, 21 Oct 2018 - 13:13
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Sent off these two letters last week regarding the case:

09/10/18
Reference: AG90482327

Dear Mr Moorwood

Thank you for your letter dated 1st October 2018 and my sincere apologies for the delay of response as I have been overseas for work commitments.

I once again dispute your allegation that after a PCN has been paid through your website that an appeal with an independent adjudicator is allowed. Your website clearly states that after payment has been made, you are admitting liability and an appeal is not allowed. Additionally, it does not in any way differentiate between an appeal not being allowed through Barnet Council or an independent adjudicator and this is extremely misleading to suggest on the contrary.

Furthermore, since consulting legal advice on the 14th September the Charge Certificate that has been issued to me is an illegal demand for an excessive amount backed by the threat of court action. You have acknowledged you have received £65 from me on the 17th July yet this demand is for £195. I therefore deem this Charge Certificate to be null and void and expect this matter to be closed.

I look forward to hearing from you shortly.


Reference: AG90482327

Dear Mr Moorwood

Further to my letter dated 8th October 2018, I wish to add further queries with the outstanding Penalty Notice Charge (PCN).

On the 2nd July 2018 I received a Notice of Rejection (NOR) letter dismissing my case and on the second page under the title, ‘What happens next?’ there are two options outlined to myself and I quote,

• “Pay within 14 days of the date of the service of this letter at the discounted amount of £65 and the case will be closed (see How to Pay section at the end of this letter)”.

• “Pay within 28 days of the date of the service of this letter at the full amount of £130 and the case will be closed (see How to Pay section at the end of this letter)”.

Barnet Council have never dismissed receiving an online payment of £65 on the 17th July so by your own terms and conditions this case is now closed. It is blatantly obvious that any appeal after payment has been made within the time frame must be in error so I once again question where does it state in your terms and conditions that Barnet Council will be required to reopen the PCN.

To further confirm my suspicions that you have misinformed me regarding the appeal process, at approximately 3pm on the 15th October 2018 I called Barnet Parking Services to question whether an appeal is allowed after payment has been made from a NOR letter. Your colleague categorically informed me that once payment has been made the case will be dropped and any appeals will be dismissed. Your colleague even went on to say that should you appeal before paying the PCN, it is not essential (but advisable) to inform London Tribunal you have made payment.

Additionally, as stated in my previous letter, when I made the payment through your online portal the message which appeared – and to this date still appears – is that after payment has been made you are admitting liability and you can’t appeal the parking charge. Therefore, despite your letter informing me that I could have notified the adjudicator I wished to withdraw my appeal, it is evident that there would be no point in doing this whatsoever as I have in effect admitted liability.

Although you state in your letter addressed to me on the 1st October 2018 that this is referring to appealing only through Barnet Council, one can simply not be in a position to infer this. If this is still your defence to this point, then I strongly urge you to change your wording on this so that there are no further misunderstandings for other motorists. If you fail to do this, I will inform the relevant authorities of your misleading and poor practice.

Furthermore, as the Charge Certificate Barnet Council sent to me on the 14th September 2018 was null and void I do not expect any further payment demands from Barnet Council. However, I do expect a thorough explanation as to why you believed you were entitled to additional funds from myself, which has caused me significant amount of unnecessary stress and time.

I look forward to hearing from you shortly.


Will let you know if I receive any response this week.
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hcandersen
post Sun, 21 Oct 2018 - 14:31
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What a waste.

You're rehashing old ground because you are so incensed.

You ignore advice.

The key part of the letter should be that in its evidence to the adjudicator the authority materially MISLED them and yet you bang on about other matters to the extent that if this point is there it's well hidden and by implication you do not attach as much weight to it as other matters.

Good luck.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 - 14:32
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explorer87
post Sun, 21 Oct 2018 - 19:08
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 21 Oct 2018 - 15:31) *
What a waste.

You're rehashing old ground because you are so incensed.

You ignore advice.

The key part of the letter should be that in its evidence to the adjudicator the authority materially MISLED them and yet you bang on about other matters to the extent that if this point is there it's well hidden and by implication you do not attach as much weight to it as other matters.

Good luck.


How did the authority materially mislead them ?? I appealed after I paid the PCN so In what way did the authority misleed them?

Do you not think the fact the charge certificate is for a wrong amount should be the key point here?
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hcandersen
post Sun, 21 Oct 2018 - 21:59
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The council's submission was factually wrong, the OP did 'respond to the council's offer to settle the case at the discounted amount stated above', contrary to what is stated and implied in their submission.


I don't know that I can make this any clearer.
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explorer87
post Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 09:04
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 21 Oct 2018 - 22:59) *
The council's submission was factually wrong, the OP did 'respond to the council's offer to settle the case at the discounted amount stated above', contrary to what is stated and implied in their submission.


I don't know that I can make this any clearer.


Have you read the appeal hearing result with LT?

On one of the last pages, the authority admit to receiving the discounted amount before the appeal but then were informed I submitted an appeal to LT, that I am well within my right too. Therefore the Council logged the appeal at the full rate.

The clux of the case is if I am legally allowed to submit an appeal after paying the discounted rate to the authority, then how are the authority expected to react? They have to log an amount that I am appealing for and it is totally within reason for them to do that at the full rate.

This post has been edited by explorer87: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 - 09:11
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explorer87
post Thu, 25 Oct 2018 - 16:04
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Hi all,

I have just received a letter from Barnet Council confirming that I have won the 'case' and no further action will be taken against me.

Many thanks for all your time and replies to helping me assist with this case - it certainly seemed like the fact the Charge Certificate was the wrong amount was what forced Barnet Council to drop this case.

It does seem like one can still appeal after paying the PCN at either the full or discounted rate despite the misleading information Barnet Council give during the appeal process.

Many thanks again

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