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sending off license, going abroad car hire
anth85
post Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:00
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I had a speeding offence a few months ago, first set of 3 points in 10 years. I went online and paid the fine as per the paperwork and thought that was the end of it. I got a letter through the post this morning (Saturday) saying they had received payment but i still needed to post my license off (newer card style), within 7 days or I will be taken to court. Normally this would be fine, however I go to Florida on Wednesday morning and need my license for the car hire I have booked. I am now panicking that I have the choice of losing the car hire and £400 to book it, or go to court. I can't even ring the department that sent the letter because it's the weekend. Which is why I am posting on here, can anyone advise what will happen?
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Jlc
post Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:03
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What was the speed and limit?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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anth85
post Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:09
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50/58 if i remember rightly, might have been 57.
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NewJudge
post Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:26
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If a phone call does not secure you an extension to send in your licence (and this may well depend on when the offence was) I think your only option will be to opt for a court appearance. You can ask the court to sentence you at the fixed penalty level instead of in accordance with the guidelines. They have the discretion to do this and their guidance suggests that they might where there are “reasons unconnected with the offence itself, such as administrative difficulties”. Unless anyone can think of anything else.

As an aside, in England and Wales that excess would normally qualify or the offer of a Speed Awareness Course unless you have done one in the last three years. Was such an offer made?
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squaredeal
post Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:28
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Call them Monday and explain, as long as timescales permit they should allow submission immediately following your return from holiday (presumably just a couple of weeks?)
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Jlc
post Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:28
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Ok, if you do not provide your licence then the matter will go to court. At that excess it is still 3 points but the fine will be income related (around 1/3 weekly post deduction earnings) along with costs (£85) and a surcharge of 10% of the fine (min £30).

That said, the court can sentence at a fixed penalty level without costs but the surcharge won't be avoided. They may not agree your circumstances are sufficient but are unconnected with the offence itself.

It doesn't seem likely now to get the licence there and back even with special delivery. Although, it is worth speaking to them on Monday. But the conditions of the offer are clear.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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NewJudge
post Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:31
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:28) *
That said, the court can sentence at a fixed penalty level without costs but the surcharge won't be avoided.


Most courts will impose a fine of £70 with a £30 surcharge, Jlc.
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anth85
post Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:32
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QUOTE (NewJudge @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:26) *
If a phone call does not secure you an extension to send in your licence (and this may well depend on when the offence was) I think your only option will be to opt for a court appearance. You can ask the court to sentence you at the fixed penalty level instead of in accordance with the guidelines. They have the discretion to do this and their guidance suggests that they might where there are “reasons unconnected with the offence itself, such as administrative difficulties”. Unless anyone can think of anything else.

As an aside, in England and Wales that excess would normally qualify or the offer of a Speed Awareness Course unless you have done one in the last three years. Was such an offer made?


Thanks, I'll be making the phone call first thing monday morning, there is just two sleepless nights between now and then.

I have done the course in August 2013. It will be less than 3 years between that and the time i was caught but more than 3 years by the time the NIP came through. There was an issue in that i hadn't told the DVLA i have moved via the V5, I presumed changing my license was enough. It was about a year between being caught and the NIP coming to me current address so I wasnt going to argue about doing the course.


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baggins1234
post Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:32
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How about, if nothing else works out, taking your licence to the USA.

Get your car hired, then post it back airmail to the UK to be processed?

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anth85
post Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:37
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QUOTE (squaredeal @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:28) *
Call them Monday and explain, as long as timescales permit they should allow submission immediately following your return from holiday (presumably just a couple of weeks?)


leave wednesday 10th, land back early 25th, its an overnight return flight. So they would get it by friday the 26th.

I am still unclear why they need my photocard license? it's not like a paper license where there points were physically wrote on is it? I'd have thought the driver number would be enough then it be saved on a central database similar to a cars MOT/insurance ect


QUOTE (baggins1234 @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:32) *
How about, if nothing else works out, taking your licence to the USA.

Get your car hired, then post it back airmail to the UK to be processed?


that's a good idea, but what happens if i get pulled over or have an accident while driving after i've posted it back? It didn't happen last time but that doesn't mean it won't happen this time.
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baggins1234
post Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:40
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QUOTE (anth85 @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:37) *
QUOTE (baggins1234 @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:32) *
How about, if nothing else works out, taking your licence to the USA.

Get your car hired, then post it back airmail to the UK to be processed?


that's a good idea, but what happens if i get pulled over or have an accident while driving after i've posted it back? It didn't happen last time but that doesn't mean it won't happen this time.



Look up the laws in the states you’re going to and see what it says about having to carry your original licence?
You could photocopy it?
Don’t forget to get your DVLA check codes printed off to take with you
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NewJudge
post Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:49
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QUOTE (anth85 @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:37) *
I am still unclear why they need my photocard license? it's not like a paper license where there points were physically wrote on is it? I'd have thought the driver number would be enough then it be saved on a central database similar to a cars MOT/insurance ect

They need it to confirm your identity and to ensure they are adding the points to the correct driving record.

You are quite right to keep your licence with you whilst abroad. Could cause all sorts of difficulties in the event of a pull or an accident if you do not have it.

The time issue is critical. The authorities have six months from the date of the offence to commence court proceedings. There is usually a cut-off of around four months from the offence date when course or fixed penalty offers will lapse. This is to allow court proceedings to be instigated if you decline the offers. What is the offence date?

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anth85
post Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:53
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QUOTE (NewJudge @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:49) *
The time issue is critical. The authorities have six months from the date of the offence to commence court proceedings. There is usually a cut-off of around four months from the offence date when course or fixed penalty offers will lapse. This is to allow court proceedings to be instigated if you decline the offers. What is the offence date?


to be honest, i cant find the form, nor can i find the email confirmation of payment. I put a post on here when it came through asking what to do. That says the offence was june 2017. I will have paid the fine around mid Oct 2017 as that was shortly after I posted on here and was told what to do.
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cp8759
post Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:56
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QUOTE (baggins1234 @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:40) *
QUOTE (anth85 @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:37) *
QUOTE (baggins1234 @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:32) *
How about, if nothing else works out, taking your licence to the USA.

Get your car hired, then post it back airmail to the UK to be processed?


that's a good idea, but what happens if i get pulled over or have an accident while driving after i've posted it back? It didn't happen last time but that doesn't mean it won't happen this time.



Look up the laws in the states you’re going to and see what it says about having to carry your original licence?
You could photocopy it?
Don’t forget to get your DVLA check codes printed off to take with you

My understanding is that the Geneva Convention requires you to have you licence with you, and for good reason.
Putting it another way, how do you think plod would react here if a tourists got pulled over and said "oh yes I have a licence, it's in the US / Peru / Australia / whatever, but here's a black and white photocopy".
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NewJudge
post Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 22:00
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If it was in June you can simply fail to send in your licence. Having not complied with the conditions of the fixed penalty offer - which include paying the £100 and sending in your licence they should refund your £100 and instigate court proceedings which er...they can't. You might remind them of this when you negotiate the extension to send in your licence

This post has been edited by NewJudge: Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 22:04
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anth85
post Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 22:14
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QUOTE (NewJudge @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 22:00) *
If it was in June you can simply fail to send in your licence. Having not complied with the conditions of the fixed penalty offer - which include paying the £100 and sending in your licence they should refund your £100 and instigate court proceedings which er...they can't. You might remind them of this when you negotiate the extension to send in your licence


Even though it was my fault for not changing the address the car is registered at with the DVLA when I moved?
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Jlc
post Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 22:30
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QUOTE (anth85 @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 22:14) *
QUOTE (NewJudge @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 22:00) *
If it was in June you can simply fail to send in your licence. Having not complied with the conditions of the fixed penalty offer - which include paying the £100 and sending in your licence they should refund your £100 and instigate court proceedings which er...they can't. You might remind them of this when you negotiate the extension to send in your licence


Even though it was my fault for not changing the address the car is registered at with the DVLA when I moved?

The 6 month limit is just that. However, other offences can be committed such as failing to furnish driver details - but you appear to be past that stage. (Although, the offence may well have occurred)


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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NewJudge
post Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 22:33
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QUOTE (anth85 @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 22:14) *
Even though it was my fault for not changing the address the car is registered at with the DVLA when I moved?

It was their fault for not ensuring that either (a) you fully complied with the Fixed Penalty offer or (b) they instigated proceedings in time.

If it was me I'd say that I will fully comply with the offer (by submitting my licence) as soon as I return from the USA. It would be interesting to hear the view of others on here, though. You could, of course, ask for your £100 back though I wouldn't recommend it. You may face a charge of failing to change your address on the V5C. I believe this has to be instigated by the DVLA and without looking it up I'm not sure if it is also subject to the "six-month" rule. It carries no points, though.

EDIT: And it is worth considering the "Fail to Furnish" offence. That is not committed until 28 days after the request for information is served on you, so that may still well be liable to prosecution. But since you have provided your details and they have been accepted in order to progress the matter, it would be unjust to consider a prosecution for that now. But I would "play it fair" by offering to send in your licence as soon as you return and that should avoid any "unpleasantness."

This post has been edited by NewJudge: Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 22:42
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cp8759
post Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 22:36
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QUOTE (NewJudge @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 22:33) *
QUOTE (anth85 @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 22:14) *
Even though it was my fault for not changing the address the car is registered at with the DVLA when I moved?

It was their fault for not ensuring that either (a) you fully complied with the Fixed Penalty offer or (b) they instigated proceedings in time.

If it was me I'd say that I will fully comply with the offer (by submitting my licence) as soon as I return from the USA. It would be interested to hear the view of others on here, though. Off course you may face a charge of failing to change your address on the V5C. I believe this has to be instigated by the DVLA and without looking it up I'm not sure if it is also subject to the "six-month" rule.

If the matter is actually out of time, I'd just ignore them, there's nothing they can do. And I'd chase them for the £100 refund.
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baggins1234
post Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 22:36
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:56) *
My understanding is that the Geneva Convention requires you to have you licence with you, and for good reason.


Which is why I gave exactly the advice that I did.


QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:56) *
here's a black and white photocopy[/i]".


Colour photocopy would be much clearer..... blink.gif
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