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[NIP Wizard] NIP 15 Days After Offence
Anon4343
post Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 12:28
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NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - December 2017
Date of the NIP: - 13 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 15 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A147 Bishop Bridge Road, Norwich
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Truvelo DCAM - unfamiliar with area

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - No
Was there a valid reason for the NIP's late arrival? - No

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The first NIP to the Registered Keeper must arrive within 14 days unless there is a valid reason why that was not possible, for example a recent change of details.

    This link will take you to the advice provided by the RAC's legal team.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Sat, 06 Jan 2018 12:23:19 +0000

Date of Offence: 20/12/2017
Date of NIP: 02/01/2018 (13 Days after offence)
Date Arrived: 04/01/2018 (15 Days after offence)

36 in a 30.. my own fault, unfamiliar with the area and just did not see the camera (but saw the flash so knew it was coming)

I am registered keeper, my name/address on V5C, owned car for >1 year, been at same house for years

Have had a brief read of forums on here, and it would seem this is a very grey/unclear area - Criminal Procedure Rules would say 1st class post is deemed served on 2nd business day after posting - not sure if worth replying to S172 with a letter pointing this out?

This post has been edited by Anon4343: Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 12:33
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post Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 12:28
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Colin_S
post Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 12:36
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Take a look at this almost identical thread

Churchmouse's reply made me smile.

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Anon4343
post Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 12:44
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QUOTE (Colin_S @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 12:36) *
Take a look at this almost identical thread

Churchmouse's reply made me smile.


The only difference is that one was dated 14 days after, mine is 13 (but has arrived after 15)...

If I reply to the S172 identifying myself along with pointing out it is time barred/been served late am I going to in any way affect my chances of being offered a SAC if they disagree? Last thing I want is 3 points to be honest, and wouldn't want to shoot myself in the foot and lose the opportunity of an SAC for requesting it be cancelled on time grounds...
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Jlc
post Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 14:48
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All things being equal it's 'late'.

You have to name the driver as you note. So you can either keep quiet and take the course without issue (0 points around £100) or challenge.

When challenged they might concede and cancel straightaway or state that the matter can only be resolved in court.

It appears you have a lead piping defence.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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nosferatu1001
post Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 17:36
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13 days is alwsys too late as 2 days are require d for delivery.
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peterguk
post Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 18:14
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 17:36) *
13 days is alwsys too late as 2 days are require d for delivery.


Even if it arrives on day 14?


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cp8759
post Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:07
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 18:14) *
QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 17:36) *
13 days is alwsys too late as 2 days are require d for delivery.


Even if it arrives on day 14?

There's a discussion in the flame pit that covers that scenario: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=117901
Not relevant here as the OP has stated it arrived on day 15.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Anon4343
post Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 21:03
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Have filled out the S172 etc. ready to send back.

I am contemplating how/if to take the date issue further. My understanding is that if sent on Day 13, it can not 'legally' arrive until Day 15 - as the dates work out, it theoretically becomes Day 17, but that does not matter as it is out of time regardless due to it not being served for 2 business days, taking it past the 14 day requirement (to my understanding, having read the RTOA, CrimPR etc.)

A couple of questions if anyone can offer any advice/insight
1. Do the Criminal Procedure Rules apply to NIPs?
2. If I send a covering letter, and the police wish to dispute/contest what I am saying, will I still be offered the opportunity to resolve the matter with a Speed Awareness Course or must it proceed to court?
3. Is it worth a phone call to the Central Ticket Office, or will they want it in writing?
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andy_foster
post Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 21:18
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1. Have you read the link in PeterG's post?
2. Maybe, maybe not.
3. The s. 172 response must be in writing. Whether it is worth your time phoning them to point out that the NIP is late is a question only you can answer.


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Millenial (noun): a person who is offended at being told "Suck it up, buttercup"
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Anon4343
post Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 21:34
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QUOTE (andy_foster @ Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 21:18) *
1. Have you read the link in PeterG's post?
2. Maybe, maybe not.
3. The s. 172 response must be in writing. Whether it is worth your time phoning them to point out that the NIP is late is a question only you can answer.


I hadn't read it fully but just have done. I am fairly sure that it is indeed out of time, and there is evidence to support that (both from that case and the CrimPR), however to dispute it and then be challenged and subsequently wrong would be a very very costly mistake (if the offer of a SAC/FPN is revoked)... hence being in 2 minds.

I guess there are only 2 definite options in either accepting it/doing the SAC or challenging it and accepting whatever course that then takes. It seems I want a third option to challenge it and keep the option of an SAC if it doesn't go my way laugh.gif

I suppose a phone call in the meantime can't do any harm to enquire about it being late etc?
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Logician
post Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 22:36
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QUOTE (Anon4343 @ Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 21:34) *
It seems I want a third option to challenge it and keep the option of an SAC if it doesn't go my way laugh.gif I suppose a phone call in the meantime can't do any harm to enquire about it being late etc?


I think there can be no guarantee that it will not do any harm, they may take it as an indication that you would not accept a course or fixed penalty and not offer those options, so it would be advisable to try to forestall that. The most probable response is that you should take it to court for them to decide about the timing.



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southpaw82
post Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 22:45
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It is relatively settled law that something posted by first class post on day 13 cannot be presumed to arrive until day 15 at the earliest. The only way it could be shown to have arrived on day 14 is if direct evidence was given of this, which nobody on the prosecution side is able to do. Therefore, your only potential difficult is if this is not the first NIP or there is some reason relieving the police of the need to serve an NIP. Perhaps a polite enquiry would satisfy this?


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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agtlaw
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 08:10
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20.12.2017 is day 0. 4.1.2018 is day 14.
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Fredd
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 08:36
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QUOTE (agtlaw @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 08:10) *
20.12.2017 is day 0. 4.1.2018 is day 14.

I suggest you count again...


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Jlc
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 08:38
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QUOTE (agtlaw @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 08:10) *
20.12.2017 is day 0. 4.1.2018 is day 14.

I make day 14 3rd Jan?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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cp8759
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 08:41
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QUOTE (agtlaw @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 08:10) *
20.12.2017 is day 0. 4.1.2018 is day 14.

No it isn't
20.12.2017 is day 0
21.12.2017 is day 1
22.12.2017 is day 2
23.12.2017 is day 3
24.12.2017 is day 4
25.12.2017 is day 5
26.12.2017 is day 6
27.12.2017 is day 7
28.12.2017 is day 8
29.12.2017 is day 9
30.12.2017 is day 10
31.12.2017 is day 11
1.1.2018 is day 12
2.1.2018 is day 13
3.1.2018 is day 14
4.1.2018 is day 15


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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agtlaw
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 09:04
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Correct. Fire alarm at 5 a.m. didn’t help. Need more sleep!
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Anon4343
post Wed, 17 Jan 2018 - 13:22
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Having just spoken to a lady from the CTO on the phone about this, she confirmed it was sent on Day 13 by First Class post and they therefore believed it to be served the next day (on Day 14)..

My understanding is that the law says 1st class post is served on the 2nd business day after posting.. am I correct in my understanding?
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Jlc
post Wed, 17 Jan 2018 - 13:28
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First class mail is deemed delivered on the second working day after posting - the discussion is around whether the contrary can be shown by the prosecution. (As per the flamepit discussion)

It may have arrived on day 14 - as 1st class post often does. But they can't prove that. (And not withstanding it actually arrived on day 15)

The driver needs naming regardless...

This post has been edited by Jlc: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 - 13:30


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Anon4343
post Wed, 17 Jan 2018 - 13:49
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 17 Jan 2018 - 13:28) *
First class mail is deemed delivered on the second working day after posting - the discussion is around whether the contrary can be shown by the prosecution. (As per the flamepit discussion)

It may have arrived on day 14 - as 1st class post often does. But they can't prove that. (And not withstanding it actually arrived on day 15)

The driver needs naming regardless...


I am >99% sure it arrived on Day 15 (as I check it daily). 1st class post can frequently take 2 (or has even on occasion taken 3) days to arrive as we live so rurally - I just want to be confident I have got the dates/law correct before I respond to them in writing in case they disagree and insist it goes to court.

Date of NIP; 20/12/2017 (22:22)
Day 1 of 14; 21/12/2017
-- 22/12 (2), 23/12 (3), 24/12 (4), 25/12 (5), 26/12 (6), 27/12 (7), 28/12 (8), 29/12 (9), 30/12 (10), 31/12 (11), 1/1 (12)
Dated/Posted; 02/01/2018 (13)
Arrived; 04/01/2018 (15)

Am I best placed "asking" if it is out of time, or "telling" them it is out of time in the first instance when replying with the NIP? Should I also retain copies of the NIP and envelope etc.?
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