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No appeal replied from Havering Council only PCN increases....
robbieuk81
post Sat, 13 Apr 2019 - 14:19
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Hi All,

I definitely need some assistance now as it is beyond my knowledge...I previously had some history with havering PCN's and even had to go to adjudicators once to win the case however this one drives me mad now because of council's ignorance in not responding at all.

My gf has received a PCN on 14th December for the vehicle left outside my drive. There is a single yellow line beside my drive and residential parking on the other side of the road. Her car developed a fault and as she was not far away from where I live and she managed to get to the street. Couple of my friends and I managed to push the car next to my house but we had no space on a drive so just left the car outside it. Recovery vehicle was called and we waited for it inside the house. On arrival of recovery vehicle we found PCN on the car window...

The first appeal followed few days later with explanation of what has happened and invoice from the garage was provided. No response from council was received.

Then towards the end of January gf received Notice to Owner sent to her address. The notice offered no discount and was dated 16th January 2019.

We have made the appeal on 4th February 2019 outlining the reasons why the car was left outside my property. Also advised that we have not received any response to initial response.

Did we get a response to the appeal? Nope. Nothing at all.

However we have now received a Charge Certificate dated 5th April 2019 with additional fee of £65 added to the PCN.

it drives me mad as both previous appeals were ignored by the council and no appeal rejection letters were sent to us so we have no idea why appeals were turned down. Not only have they not offered 50% discount with the Notice to Owner letter as initial appeal was made within 14 days of PCN issued, they have also now increased the fine to £195 and are threatening with the court.....

Any ideas what should I do now please?












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post Sat, 13 Apr 2019 - 14:19
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nextdoor
post Sat, 13 Apr 2019 - 14:31
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Wait for the Order for Recovery and then make a witness statement that you didn't receive a Notice of Rejection to the NtO.

The OfR will tell you how to do this.

The PCN will then be reset to the NtO stage (£130) and you can make (or in your case, re-make) representations
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cp8759
post Sat, 13 Apr 2019 - 18:26
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+1, the process you must now follow is explained here under "Witness Statement": https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/unde...ment-process#ws

The ground that applies to you is "You made representations to the enforcement authority concerned but did not receive a Notice of Rejection from that authority"


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robbieuk81
post Sun, 14 Apr 2019 - 12:26
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Thank you very much guys, much appreciated
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Neil B
post Sun, 14 Apr 2019 - 14:18
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As above.

But do let us know how this progresses.

How did you send your challenge and reps?
Got copies?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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robbieuk81
post Sun, 28 Apr 2019 - 01:23
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 14 Apr 2019 - 15:18) *
As above.

But do let us know how this progresses.

How did you send your challenge and reps?
Got copies?


Will definitely do Neil. Apologies for not answering earlier, was away and left my responses in home pc...

The first appeal was sent by post and I have a proof of postage. It however was not a recorded delivery so I cannot confirm if it was received by them or not.

Second one was made online and I have made a screenshot of reference number. I have included our second appeal for you to take a look into:

''To Whom It May Concern,

I have received a Notice to Owner dated 16th January 2019 which claims that Penalty Charge Notice has not been paid yet.

I am quite disappointed to have received this Notice to Owner as I am still wait for your response to my initial appeal which was sent to you on 20th December 2018.

As stated in the first appeal my car has developed a fault and engine would cut off intermittently. Without risking and leaving the car on the main road I barely managed
to reach my boyfriends place who lives at xx Pettley Gardens, Romford. I even had assistance from my boyfriend and his friend who pushed the car from the main road.
As there were no parking spaces available and he had no visitors parking permits we thought the safest and least obstructive way to park would be over his drive which
to be fair used to be allowed previously. It seems it is only recently that the single yellow line has been introduced over his driveway. Also I would like to point out that
Havering council allows parking over driveways as advised in a parking booklet.

Nevertheless, the car was a failure and could not be driven. By the time recovery vehicle arrived to tow the vehicle away to the garage your parking warden has issued
a penalty notice. I am sure if he would have knocked on the door we would have fully explained what is the situation and this could have been easily avoided.

Please find a copy of the invoice from the garage.

I do sincerely hope you will understand how this was already a stressful experience and the car was only left there because of mechanical issues.''


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hcandersen
post Sun, 28 Apr 2019 - 10:24
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The advice given is not wholly correct as you would see if you read cp's link.

If reps were made and response not received then the recipient of the NTO submits a witness statement on the grounds that reps were made but response not received.

At which point they do NOT get a reset PCN or reset anything, the authority on receiving TEC's order cancelling the CC can either cancel the PCN or refer the matter to the adjudicator, they are their only options.

So your gf's action is:
Contact the authority and find out when they intend to issue the OfR: after all, the CC payment period ended 10 days ago.

Come back here and let us know.

Do not discuss the contravention with the authority, they are no longer the judges in this case.
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robbieuk81
post Mon, 29 Apr 2019 - 13:37
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Well, as it turns out there was no need to contact council regarding the issue of OfR. Today the letter has arrived dated 23rd April 19 informing that should outstanding amount of £195 is not paid within 7 days then PCN will be registered as a debt at Northampton County Court. Here is the copy of the letter.



Do we still do nothing and wait for the letter from Northampton County Court?
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Incandescent
post Mon, 29 Apr 2019 - 16:39
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The letter is NOT a document that is part of the enforcement process defined in law, and could be considered unlawful intimidation by the council. It has no legal significance at all, and you should not respond to it. They have to register the debt at the TEC in order to be able to instruct bailiffs. The Order for Recovery is the final document in the legally defined process, and will allow you to submit a Witness Statement. Until that OfR is received by you, all you can do is cough-up or wait for it.
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Neil B
post Mon, 29 Apr 2019 - 17:00
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In about a week you can phone TEC to ask if the debt has been registered.

0300 123 1059

Keeps you safe.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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robbieuk81
post Mon, 29 Apr 2019 - 22:47
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Thank you guys,

I shall indeed will phone TEC to make sure we are safe.

In regards of the last letter to my gf it has crossed my mind that council is very pushy and intimidating to some extent especially the language used towards the end of the letter. It felt on other hand as if they have realised something wrong was done and are trying to bully their way through it now.

Will definitely keep you updated as your comments are so valuable.
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robbieuk81
post Fri, 24 May 2019 - 08:45
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Hi all again smile.gif

We have now received a form from Northampton County Court. To make sure we do not make a mistake I have attached the picture if this is what we should tick for?



Thank you
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stamfordman
post Fri, 24 May 2019 - 08:52
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It's just one tick on the left hand lower box you need. The other doesn't apply in your case as you didn't get a rejection and appealed to the tribunal.
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robbieuk81
post Fri, 24 May 2019 - 09:45
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Thank you Stamfordman
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hcandersen
post Fri, 24 May 2019 - 10:15
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We have now received a form from Northampton County Court

No 'we' haven't, the owner has.

And it's not from the court, it's from the authority: the court simply grants permission for the authority to send.

Having granted permission, based only on the authority's account, they now await the owner's input.

If that input is a witness statement, then the court say aha, something's plausibly amiss with the authority's claim so let the adjudicator sort it out if the authority want to continue.

I'm always baffled by OfRs in circumstances like these. After all, what could the authority have said to TEC, we haven't received reps or we sent a NOR are the only possible options. But you have evidence that reps were submitted. So, is it that the authority have a NOR which has got lost in the post?

We'll find out once the witness statement is processed and the authority refer the matter to the adjudicator.

OP, there seem to be 2 PCNs, so can you please ensure you keep track of both, we don't want to think the OfR is regarding the 'wrong' PCN.

And the latest date on the OfR for submission of the statement is?
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cp8759
post Fri, 24 May 2019 - 12:51
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If you tick two boxes on the witness statement your witness statement will be rejected as invalid. This is because you can't appeal if you haven't received a Notice of Rejection, so saying you're not received the NoR and you've appealed is contradictory and cannot possibly be true.


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hcandersen
post Fri, 24 May 2019 - 14:30
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+1.

And to pre-empt the OP saying that they're the same, they are not. This is to do with legal terms.

Representations: what you submitted to the authority. (unfortunately and misleadingly often referred to as 'appeal' by OPs);

Appeal: to the adjudicator against an authority's rejection of an owner's representations.

+1.

And to pre-empt the OP saying that they're the same, they are not. This is to do with legal terms.

Representations: what you submitted to the authority. (unfortunately and misleadingly often referred to as 'appeal' by OPs);

Appeal: to the adjudicator against an authority's rejection of an owner's representations.
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robbieuk81
post Fri, 24 May 2019 - 20:06
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 24 May 2019 - 11:15) *
We have now received a form from Northampton County Court

No 'we' haven't, the owner has.

And it's not from the court, it's from the authority: the court simply grants permission for the authority to send.

.......

And the latest date on the OfR for submission of the statement is?


Thank you for your comment.

The latest date was 30th May 2019. The owner has submitted T9 online today and is awaiting for a response that it has been processed.
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Neil B
post Fri, 24 May 2019 - 20:15
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QUOTE (robbieuk81 @ Fri, 24 May 2019 - 21:06) *
The owner has submitted T9 online today and is awaiting for a response that it has been processed.

To what address? Normally auto-acknowledged in minutes.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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robbieuk81
post Sat, 25 May 2019 - 21:16
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Neil - form was sent to the given email address on the form - tec@justice.gov.uk

It was auto-acknowledged straight away. Though the following line in auto-response email made me write that owner is awaiting for a response that it has been processed:

''- What Tec will process

Witness statement (TE9) and Statutory declarations (PE3) - will be processed within 48 hours of receipt. ''

Witness statement sent on 24th May, 48 hours procession, that means response submitted in time for the deadline of 30th May.
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