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Charge Certificate notice - do I need to pay?
explorer87
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 13:52
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Hi all,

First post here so please go easy.

On the 22nd May 2018 I performed a contravention 50(J) which is performing a prohibited turn from Barnet Council. The fine was £130 with a 14 day 50% discount period, which would rise to £195 if paid after.

I appealed this on the grounds that the signs of this prohibited turn were restricted to which it got rejected on the 4th July.

I then had a further 14 days discount period. However at this stage this is where it becomes tricky. The letter stated that I had two options:

1. To pay the fine for £65 with 14 days and the matter is closed (or £130 within 28 days)
2. To lodge an appeal with an independent adjudicator.

On the 17th July I paid the £65, but also appealed with the adjudicator on the same day thinking if the free appeal gets accepted I will be entitled to a refund of the £65. Unfortunately one week the appeal got rejected and the letter advised me to pay the charge. As I had already paid the charge at the discounted rate I didn't think there was anything further I needed to do.

However last week Barnet Council wrote to me advising that since the appeal has been rejected and it is more than 28 days since the 4th July, I now owe a further £130. Failure to pay within 14 will incur a further charge of £8 and a debt passed onto the county court.

I spoke to them on the phone this morning and they advised me that the letter on the 4th July states you can either pay the charge or appeal. Since I have done both, this apparently re opened the case despite paying the £65 charge at the discounted rate.

Please advise what your thoughts are at this stage.

Many thanks
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Neil B
post Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 17:59
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QUOTE (Enceladus @ Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 18:25) *
The decision is dated the 16th August. I take it this was not a personal hearing so you were informed of the outcome by post?
What date is on the decision letter, the 17th August maybe?
And do you have the envelope? Is there a postmark/franking mark? If yes, what date?

QUOTE (explorer87 @ Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 15:08) *
17th August : Email response from London Tribunal case rejected and must pay full PCN within 28 days.


This post has been edited by Neil B: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 20:20


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 18:06
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QUOTE
14th September : Charge Certificate from Barnet Council wanting £195 to pay within 14 days other wise they 'may register the charge as a debt at the county court'. Also something to notice that the letter is demanding I must pay the increased penalty charge of £195 within 14 days. However when I go online to pay this it is only asking for £130 (it has deducted the £65 I have already paid). As the wording in this letter is not technically correct can the charge notice be cancelled on that ground?



What it says on the legal document takes precedent over what it says on a website


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cp8759
post Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 19:34
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 19:06) *
QUOTE
14th September : Charge Certificate from Barnet Council wanting £195 to pay within 14 days other wise they 'may register the charge as a debt at the county court'. Also something to notice that the letter is demanding I must pay the increased penalty charge of £195 within 14 days. However when I go online to pay this it is only asking for £130 (it has deducted the £65 I have already paid). As the wording in this letter is not technically correct can the charge notice be cancelled on that ground?



What it says on the legal document takes precedent over what it says on a website

+1, the CC is demanding too much. A motorist might just pay by cheque and never find out they were over-charged.


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Neil B
post Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 20:19
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 18:50) *
Op said the CC is demanding £195 so exceeds the amount due £130

Yeah, sorry PMB, I missed that.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Mr Mustard
post Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 23:41
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The OP is out of time for a review request, it might be considered out of time in the circumstances but we need to see documents before we can suggest the best course.


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hcandersen
post Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 07:06
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OP, you have no option other than to post the letters, we cannot advise on your take on what a letter might say/mean.

Leave in all dates.

To try and summarise as I see it:
Barnet’s Notice of Rejection of Representations;
How you paid the £65 and whether you have a receipt;
The adjudicator’s letter notifying you of the decision in your case and the actions you must take;
Barnet’s CC.

Barnet’s NOR will tell us the latest date - which has to be calculated - by which you could pay £65;
You’ll tell us how and when you paid and we’ll work out whether this was in time;
The adjudicator’s letter will tell us the outstanding penalty and the earliest date on which a CC may be served;
The issue date of their CC will tell us whether it was issued early;
The contents will tell us what is being demanded.

Over to you.

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explorer87
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 20:52
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Hi all,

Sorry for the delay in response.

Please see attachments and advise any further comments. The date of the letter from London Tribunal giving the outcome was the 17th August and the last two attachments are my Charge Certificate from Barnet Council sent to me on the 14th September.

As you can see in my next post on Monday this week I requested via email from Barnet Council a copy of the notice of rejection letter but I am yet to receive that and only received an automated email response.

Many thanks

This post has been edited by explorer87: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 21:57
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explorer87
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 21:08
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Automatic reply: PCN : AG90482327
B
Barnet <Barnet@nslservices.co.uk>
Reply|
Mon 17/09, 13:28
You
Thank you for your email. This email service deals with the following matters -

* General enquiries and representations relating to Penalty Charge Notices (PCNs) issued by London Borough of Barnet for a parking, bus lane or moving traffic contravention.

* General enquiries relating to enforcement issues in Barnet.

* Complaints, comments and feedback about our services.

If your email is regarding a PCN issued by London Borough of Barnet (easily identified by the prefix AG) we will aim to respond to your enquiry within 14 days of receipt of your email. Please ensure the AG reference number is detailed in your
email. Dependant on the level of investigation required, some responses may take longer than the specified time scale. In all cases, communication sent in relation to PCNs will be placed on hold for the duration of the investigation and until
the expiry of the timescale specified in the decision notice.

If your email is not related to a PCN, a response will be sent to you within 14 days. However, this could take longer depending on the level of investigation needed and the nature of your enquiry, in line with any relevant legislation. Please
indicate in your email if you would prefer a response sent via post; if so please include a full name and postal address in order for us to reply.

Please note that if you would like to make a representation against a PCN by post, it must be signed by the registered keeper of the vehicle and sent to the postal address shown on the penalty charge notice (see below) -

Barnet Parking Services
PO Box 197
Lowton Way
Hellaby
Sheffield
S98 1LW

Alternatively, you can submit your representation online by visiting the website:
http://parkingservices.nsl.co.uk/barnet/notices/

However, we will still consider your representation if received via this email inbox.

Thank you for contacting Barnet Parking Services.

For further information, please visit our website at:
https://www.barnet.gov.uk/citizen-home/park...vements/parking





NSL LIMITED DISCLAIMER
The contents of this e-mail are for use by the intended addressee(s) only and may contain legally privileged material and confidential information that is exempt from disclosure by law. Please note that if you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail by you is strictly prohibited and you must not read, use or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this e-mail in error, please immediately notify the sender by return e-mail or by telephoning 0844 870 7070
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Mr Mustard
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 21:10
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we really need the entire front page of the charge certificate please


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All advice given by me on PePiPoo is on a pro bono basis (i.e. free). PePiPoo relies on Donations so do donate if you can. Sometimes I will, in addition, personally offer to represent you at London Tribunals (i.e. within greater London only) & if you wish me to I will ask you to make a voluntary donation, if the Appeal is won, directly to the North London Hospice.
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explorer87
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 21:14
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QUOTE (Mr Mustard @ Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 22:10) *
we really need the entire front page of the charge certificate please


For what reason may I ask? As it contains my home address
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 21:34
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Time is not your friend obscure your name and address and post everything else


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explorer87
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 21:52
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 22:34) *
Time is not your friend obscure your name and address and post everything else


That is all the documents I have on the case right now.
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Mr Mustard
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 22:45
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We need the entire page of the charge certificate to see all dates & amounts. Technical errors lead to solutions sometimes. Just cover your name address and vehicle registration or email it to mrmustard@zoho.com and I will do it


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All advice given by me on PePiPoo is on a pro bono basis (i.e. free). PePiPoo relies on Donations so do donate if you can. Sometimes I will, in addition, personally offer to represent you at London Tribunals (i.e. within greater London only) & if you wish me to I will ask you to make a voluntary donation, if the Appeal is won, directly to the North London Hospice.
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explorer87
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 23:39
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QUOTE (Mr Mustard @ Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 23:45) *
We need the entire page of the charge certificate to see all dates & amounts. Technical errors lead to solutions sometimes. Just cover your name address and vehicle registration or email it to mrmustard@zoho.com and I will do it


Thank you very much - have just emailed you
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Neil B
post Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 00:18
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QUOTE (explorer87 @ Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 00:39) *
QUOTE (Mr Mustard @ Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 23:45) *
We need the entire page of the charge certificate to see all dates & amounts. Technical errors lead to solutions sometimes. Just cover your name address and vehicle registration or email it to mrmustard@zoho.com and I will do it


Thank you very much - have just emailed you

Oh, don't mind the rest of us, for lack of a matchbox. rolleyes.gif


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Mr Mustard
post Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 07:35
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Still in bed but I plan to upload the redacted charge certificate


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All advice given by me on PePiPoo is on a pro bono basis (i.e. free). PePiPoo relies on Donations so do donate if you can. Sometimes I will, in addition, personally offer to represent you at London Tribunals (i.e. within greater London only) & if you wish me to I will ask you to make a voluntary donation, if the Appeal is won, directly to the North London Hospice.
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Mr Mustard
post Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 08:21
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Charge certificate



On the council website the sum payable is £130 so this is a failure of the charge certificate to credit payments made against the PCN. (£130 pcn + 50% uplift of £65 - £65 paid = £130)

I will upload the standard wording from a Notice of Rejection in a few minutes.

This post has been edited by Mr Mustard: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 08:24


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All advice given by me on PePiPoo is on a pro bono basis (i.e. free). PePiPoo relies on Donations so do donate if you can. Sometimes I will, in addition, personally offer to represent you at London Tribunals (i.e. within greater London only) & if you wish me to I will ask you to make a voluntary donation, if the Appeal is won, directly to the North London Hospice.
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Mr Mustard
post Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 09:08
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Here is the relevant page of a Notice of Rejection dated 3 July for a Barnet box junction so the same standard letter as for a banned turn (the OP has asked Barnet for a copy of his)



An adjudicator will most likely regard trying to pay 50% in full & final settlement and then subsequently going to Appeal as an attempt to game the system. Adjudicators can only allow or refuse an Appeal at the full price of the PCN unless the council either offer to accept 50% or the Adjudicator makes a recommendation which the council decide to follow.

The council's Notice of Rejection is badly phrased and some will regard it as outside the black letter of the law but a purposive view will be taken by adjudicators, in my humble opinion.

The OP has possibly been too cute and is now finding himself facing an extra £65 because of it.

I don't see that a Statutory Declaration can be made.
A review request to the tribunal is out of time.
That leaves a complaint to Barnet Council as an option on the grounds that their Charge Certificate is an illegal demand for an excessive sum backed by the threat of Court action. (I can ask the parking manager to fix them for the future)

I'll see what others think.



--------------------
All advice given by me on PePiPoo is on a pro bono basis (i.e. free). PePiPoo relies on Donations so do donate if you can. Sometimes I will, in addition, personally offer to represent you at London Tribunals (i.e. within greater London only) & if you wish me to I will ask you to make a voluntary donation, if the Appeal is won, directly to the North London Hospice.
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Neil B
post Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 09:57
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Tks M.
QUOTE (Mr Mustard @ Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 10:08) *
A review request to the tribunal is out of time.

It is but with a strong reason to be considered; The current matter has only just occurred.

I'm not sure we're seeking a review as such, as we are not querying the original decision.

Suggestion:
Perhaps write to LT, explaining --
-- CC, just issued, exceeds the amount due.
-- V briefly explain why CC issued at all, i.e. not understanding £65 was to be paid.
-- No other avenues open to address the unlawful CC.

LT might choose to deal with it as a review or might respond in some other way; I can't think what though.

---

No option to make an SD based on PCN paid (i.e. pay the £130 first) as no such option on an SD.

--

OR
the complaint to Barnet.

--
Whatever it is -- pronto.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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hcandersen
post Fri, 21 Sep 2018 - 10:03
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Can we just get the facts in play.

NOR dated 3 July. Deemed served 5th.
The authority would accept £65 if paid no later than 19th ( ‘within 14 days of service’ = 14 days after).
‘On the 17th July I paid the £65,’ (but you’ve still not said how you paid e.g. online, cheque in post?

Assuming payment received no later than 19th then that’s the end of the matter.

IMO, it doesn’t matter that the OP submitted an appeal. The authority’s ONLY possible option on receipt of notification from ETA was to notify them that the penalty had been paid and accepted. Nothing is owng, the case is closed.

So OP, this distils itself into simple facts:
When and how did you pay the £65?
What proof do you have?
The CC does not acknowledge receipt of £65, the outstanding amount is £195.

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