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Can a charge certificate be rescinded? procedures not followed
Ed26
post Fri, 14 Dec 2018 - 16:57
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Hi just wanted to know if a charge certificate could be rescinded as i dont believe proper procedure has been followed. Back on 3rd October 18 i recieved a pcn for making an alleged contravention. You supposedly have 28 days with which to respond. I logged into the barking and dagenham website on 5th November to file an informal challenge. Not sure if i have counted my days right but 5th November is still within the 28 day period to file an online challenge??. Anyway on attempt to upload my challenge i was greeted by the screen "Informal Challenge Denied" that i could only make a formal challenge as a notice to owner had already been sent out.( screen shot attached.) So i used webcode on original pcn & went on to upload the formal challange. i waited for the NOtice to owner letter to arrive but it never did. THe next letter i was to receive was this morning a charge certificate for £195(also attached) in it they make reference to only 1 letter being sent out 9th Oct. Do i have a case and how would i get them to take the CC back?
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post Fri, 14 Dec 2018 - 16:57
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spaceman
post Fri, 14 Dec 2018 - 17:13
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This is a moving traffic contravention so there is no 'Notice to Owner' as such. Effectively the PCN acts as this.

There are no 'informal challenges', only formal representations.

As the date of the PCN is 9th October, if what you say is true about submitting representations on 5th November then you would appear to be in time.

The charge certificate can be cancelled, but this does not cancel the PCN.

Next stage is an Order for Recovery. When you recive this you may be able to make a Statutory Declaration on one of the grounds stated on the form you will be sent. One of these grounds is that you made representations against the PCN but did not receive a response.

This should cancel the charge certificate and revoke the order for recovery.

The matter will then be referred to the Adjudicator who will determine what should happen next. It is likely that you will need to furnish the Adjudciator with a copy of the representations you made to the authority, so keep these safe!

When you get the Order for Recovery, come back here for further advice...and keep an eye on any deadlines!

This post has been edited by spaceman: Fri, 14 Dec 2018 - 17:16
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DJ Lexy
post Fri, 14 Dec 2018 - 17:17
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That first letter you received was the Notice to Owner. It has the web code at the top.
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TigerRob
post Fri, 14 Dec 2018 - 17:50
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QUOTE (Ed26 @ Fri, 14 Dec 2018 - 16:57) *
I logged into the barking and dagenham website on 5th November to file an informal challenge ... on attempt to upload my challenge i was greeted by the screen "Informal Challenge Denied" that i could only make a formal challenge as a notice to owner had already been sent out.( screen shot attached.) So i used webcode on original pcn & went on to upload the formal challange ...


Did the website give you any sort of receipt/confirmation that you had successfully made the formal challenge? If you log into the site now is there any sort of log showing the events and dates relating to this PCN?
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Ed26
post Fri, 14 Dec 2018 - 18:53
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QUOTE (spaceman @ Fri, 14 Dec 2018 - 17:13) *
This is a moving traffic contravention so there is no 'Notice to Owner' as such. Effectively the PCN acts as this.

There are no 'informal challenges', only formal representations.

As the date of the PCN is 9th October, if what you say is true about submitting representations on 5th November then you would appear to be in time.

The charge certificate can be cancelled, but this does not cancel the PCN.

Next stage is an Order for Recovery. When you recive this you may be able to make a Statutory Declaration on one of the grounds stated on the form you will be sent. One of these grounds is that you made representations against the PCN but did not receive a response.

This should cancel the charge certificate and revoke the order for recovery.

The matter will then be referred to the Adjudicator who will determine what should happen next. It is likely that you will need to furnish the Adjudciator with a copy of the representations you made to the authority, so keep these safe!

When you get the Order for Recovery, come back here for further advice...and keep an eye on any deadlines!


Thanks for swift reply and clarification,i guess this messes up my claim for a procedural impropriety, i did make the challenge but only have the screen shot of when it wouldnt allow me to submit. wishing i made tht screen shot as well now ;-( there should be logs on there computers though right


QUOTE (TigerRob @ Fri, 14 Dec 2018 - 17:50) *
QUOTE (Ed26 @ Fri, 14 Dec 2018 - 16:57) *
I logged into the barking and dagenham website on 5th November to file an informal challenge ... on attempt to upload my challenge i was greeted by the screen "Informal Challenge Denied" that i could only make a formal challenge as a notice to owner had already been sent out.( screen shot attached.) So i used webcode on original pcn & went on to upload the formal challange ...


Did the website give you any sort of receipt/confirmation that you had successfully made the formal challenge? If you log into the site now is there any sort of log showing the events and dates relating to this PCN?


didnt get a reciept or at least icant find in my emails ;-(
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Neil B
post Fri, 14 Dec 2018 - 18:55
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And you have a copy of what you submitted?


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Ed26
post Mon, 17 Dec 2018 - 14:56
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 14 Dec 2018 - 18:55) *
And you have a copy of what you submitted?

Yes I have a copy of what I submitted and pictures,
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cp8759
post Mon, 17 Dec 2018 - 15:45
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So when the Order for Recovery arrives you can make a statutory declaration to the effect that you made representations, but never received a reply.


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If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Ed26
post Mon, 17 Dec 2018 - 15:49
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Many thanks again
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Ed26
post Fri, 4 Jan 2019 - 16:51
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This arrived in the post yesterday. should i be worried i thought i would be expecting somthing else?
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cp8759
post Fri, 4 Jan 2019 - 18:43
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Just ignore it, it has no legal value whatsoever. Once the Order for Recovery arrived, you can get the matter reset. It might be a good idea to periodically call the Traffic Enforcement Centre to check if the debt has been registered yet, their details are at https://courttribunalfinder.service.gov.uk/...ment-centre-tec


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If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Ed26
post Fri, 4 Jan 2019 - 20:03
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Many thanks for your help. If it’s registered before letter arrives what do I do??
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hcandersen
post Fri, 4 Jan 2019 - 23:10
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OP, rather than drip-feed the procedure to you, here it is in all its glory:

https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/unde...rcement-process

Pl read it.

No dramas or hidden agendas. No need to be Perry Mason. Just straighforward.

You will receive an order for recovery;
You will complete, have witnessed and submit a statutory declaration in time - the form makes this clear;
The Traffic Enforcement Centre will cancel the OfR and Charge Cert and confirm this in writing to you and the authority.

And then we take it from there.
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Incandescent
post Fri, 4 Jan 2019 - 23:33
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 4 Jan 2019 - 18:43) *
Just ignore it, it has no legal value whatsoever. Once the Order for Recovery arrived, you can get the matter reset. It might be a good idea to periodically call the Traffic Enforcement Centre to check if the debt has been registered yet, their details are at https://courttribunalfinder.service.gov.uk/...ment-centre-tec

Not only has it no legal significance whatsoever, it could also be considered to be unlawful intimidation as letters like this have no defined part in the enforcement process. As such it could be considered to be a "procedural impropriety" and certainly should be included as such in your appeal to the adjudicator.
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Ed26
post Wed, 27 Feb 2019 - 13:55
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Hi it’s been a few months, I filled in the stat dec and order for recovery has been cancelled and the matter referred to independent adjudicator. I have been sent a mountain of paper work by the council and letter from London tribunals (link attached)
https://ibb.co/N3gZyRK
https://ibb.co/MkX1HPN

Not sure what to upload from council stuff as it’s so much
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Neil B
post Wed, 27 Feb 2019 - 14:00
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QUOTE (Ed26 @ Wed, 27 Feb 2019 - 13:55) *
Not sure what to upload from council stuff as it’s so much

Your reps.
The rejection.
Their summary.
The index.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 27 Feb 2019 - 14:03
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QUOTE
And you have a copy of what you submitted?

QUOTE
Yes I have a copy of what I submitted and pictures,





That's good because you now need to send it to the tribunal along with any proof of sending


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All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Neil B
post Wed, 27 Feb 2019 - 14:05
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edit nonsense

This post has been edited by Neil B: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 - 19:04


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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hcandersen
post Wed, 27 Feb 2019 - 14:48
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Neil B, well done. We cannot take the OP's view on the meaning of letters!

Anyway, OP you posted:

Yes I have a copy of what I submitted and pictures, and

So i used webcode on original pcn & went on to upload the formal challange


So as regards the adjudicator's direction, you simply give them what they've requested i.e. 'the representations which you say you made to the Enforcement Authority'.

As regards when and how, you give this in narrative form as above adding, I would suggest, a date if you know it or a statement to the effect that 'on or about' ****. Your system might even have saved your reps with an internal computer date, if so give this as well.

That's it. You are NOT making an appeal. Do only what is directed and nothing more with either the council or the adj.



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Ed26
post Wed, 27 Feb 2019 - 17:27
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It’s all a bit of a mess really, I made representation on 5th november which the website wouldnt let me submit, it would only allow me to submit for the next stage (formal rep). There is however proof of me doing so in the councils pack link attached, clearly shows it was uploaded on 5th



https://ibb.co/tYd5gpD

This post has been edited by Ed26: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 - 17:29
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