Southwark council PCN by post 102 days after alleged contravention date, PCN by post for 51j dated 102 days after incident date Options

[generally-happyd...]

Hello,
I have received a PCN by post for '51j; failing to comply with a no-entry sign'.
The odd thing is that the date of this is in 15/07/2020 and I received this PCN 103 days later (PCN dated 26/10/2020).

PCN copy attached.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/xKnzkq9AWMTd6sHdA

As far as I can recall, I was on NHS COVID volunteer duty at that time, taking a vulnerable patient to the hospital and may have genuinely taken a wrong turn as I have never been to that area prior to the day (so much for trying to do a good deed).

Regardless, Is a 3 months+ delayed PCN legit? Surely the council have some (more realistic) time limit in which to issue such PCNs?

Any advice on next steps (Informal reps/challenge etc) is most appreciated.
Cheers,
happy-dog.

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[cp8759]

Do you have the V5C? Is it a leave or financed vehicle?

[generally-happyd...]

Thanks @cp8759!

It's a personal vehicle (V5C is in my name) owned outright by me and has no lease or finance on it. Been like this for a few years.

[Incandescent]

Service of a PCN under the LLA & TFL Act 2003, as this one seems to be under has a limit of 28 days from date of alleged contravention, but there are certain conditions that permit service within 6 months. From what you've told us, these do not apply, and the PCN is out-of-time.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/section/6/enacted

[cp8759]

If the address on the V5C is up to date, then just write to the council saying the PCN is out of time as it's been served more than 28 days after the date of the alleged contravention. We always advise to put a draft on here first.

[generally-happyd...]

Thank you @ Incandescent and @cp8759

Just realised that my v5c address was not up to date (now fixed)! That may explain the delay. This year has been trying on so many fronts!
Not sure what I should do? Any chance they will be willing to reduce the fine down from £65?

[cp8759]

Something's not right, how would they have got your new address if the V5C is out of date? Normally if the V5C is out of date you only find out about the PCN when the bailiffs track you down (because you haven't appealed and the PCN has got to the enforcement stage).

Is the old address an address you are connected to in any way? Is there anyone there who might have replied to the council with your new address?

The penalty is £65 until 8 November, but I would not paying now as we need to determine whether there is any lawful basis for the council to be serving it so late. If the PCN is out of time, it's invalid and must be cancelled so you pay nothing.

[generally-happyd...]

To be honest, I thought I had updated my V5C a while ago but all I can locate in the house is an older copy (with prev address) - when I checked online today, it allowed me to use the v5c I found to change/update my address.
The driving license is up to date, could they have used that data? But even then, why the delay?

The old address has some new tenants living there and in the past have never bothered dealing with any letters they may have received, plus they don't have my new address (as far as I know). Doubt if that's the case.

But you are right - at the very least asking the council for an explanation for the (extremely late) PCN is warranted in the first instance.

Any pointers please to a draft I can use as a starting point to query the delay in serving the PCN?

[stamfordman]

Driving licence is nothing to do with this so must be another route.

Is the name and address on the PCN correct for your current address? This is unusual as CP says because they are bound to send to the registered keeper. Do you hold a Southwark residents parking permit - that may be how as at least they can match the car reg that way.

Just playing dumb and making reps that the PCN is out of time will no doubt result in an explanation.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Wed, 28 Oct 2020 - 11:49

[cp8759]

Just playing dumb and making reps that the PCN is out of time will no doubt result in an explanation.

+1

[generally-happyd...]

Driving licence is nothing to do with this so must be another route.

Is the name and address on the PCN correct for your current address? This is unusual as CP says because they are bound to send to the registered keeper. Do you hold a Southwark residents parking permit - that may be how as at least they can match the car reg that way.

Just playing dumb and making reps that the PCN is out of time will no doubt result in an explanation.

Thanks stamfordman.
Name and address are both correct on the PCN.
No connection to Southwark at all. Shall take the advice of the folks on this forum and make reps that PCN is out of time and request cancellation.
Would be grateful if someone can point me towards a relevant draft or template for making these reps? Will then post the draft rep back to this forum for review before sending off.
Cheers.

[hcandersen]

OP, your PCN was issued under this legislation - it says so on the PCN:

London Local Authorities Act 1990 - 2003

3)This Act and the London Local Authorities Acts 1990 to 2000 may be cited together as the London Local Authorities Acts 1990 to 2003.

And this applies:

6Limitation on service of penalty charge notice

(1)Subject to the provisions of this section, no penalty charge notice may be served under this Act after the expiry of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the alleged contravention or failure to comply occurred.
(2)Subject to the provisions of this section, where—
(a)a penalty charge notice has been cancelled under paragraph 2 of Schedule 1 to this Act; or
(b)a penalty charge notice has been cancelled in compliance with a direction given by a traffic adjudicator under paragraph 4(2) of the said Schedule; or
©a penalty charge notice is deemed to have been cancelled under paragraph 7(8)© of the said Schedule (deemed cancellation where a statutory declaration under paragraph 7(2)(a) of that Schedule is served under paragraph 7(1)©),
the borough council or Transport for London, as the case may be, may not serve a fresh penalty charge notice after the expiry of the period of 28 days from the date of the cancellation of the penalty charge notice or, in a case falling within paragraph © above, the date on which that council or body are served with notice under paragraph 7(8)(d) of the said Schedule.

But as regards the here and now, I agree that you should make simple reps on the grounds that the PCN is invalid and therefore the penalty exceeds...etc. because it's been served out of time, service out of time being the concomitant of being issued out of time.

But for completeness, pl confirm that the vehicle has been registered at all relevant times in your name and that only the address was incorrect.

[DancingDad]

Just playing dumb and making reps that the PCN is out of time will no doubt result in an explanation.

+1

Ask for the explanation explicitly.
Else likely to simply get a bland it is in time, cough up.

Not that I can think how they can justify it but I can remember one instance where a TPT adjudicator accepted a 5 month delay on a Reading bus lane when the OP's old address was given (Northern Ireland) and they found him again once he updated to his new UK address.
Never did understand the rational allowing that but council claimed they did not get correct particulars from DVLA so could use the 6 months and adjudicator accepted.

[generally-happyd...]

But for completeness, pl confirm that the vehicle has been registered at all relevant times in your name and that only the address was incorrect.

Thank you @hcandersen! I was trying to figure out which act/regulation was this PCN related to. This helps.
I can confirm that from the date pf purchase (few years ago) this vehicle has been registered to my name (and no changes of owner/keeper since) and the only confusion could be the address being out of date.

@dancingdad - thanks. Will try and phrase for an explicit explanation as to why this PCN is being served after such a delay.

[cp8759]

Post a draft here first.

[Neil B]

Ask for the explanation explicitly.
Else likely to simply get a bland it is in time, cough up.

+1

For later, just noting that their PCNs are still invalid re timing of issue of a Charge Cert.

[generally-happyd...]

While below is the draft I have come up with to Southwark council regarding the out of time PCN, can someone confirm that since this PCN has been received by post and has a CCTV angle to it, it's the equivalent of a NTO?

Also, the PCN states reps 'may' be made online - but their online portal limits what you can choose as reasons etc. (surprisingly does not allow for delays or procedural impropriety etc. as reasons one can choose) Does this mean, I should send reps via post? Someone mentioned certificate of posting on one of the stickies.

Any improvements to the below draft most appreciated.

Dear Southwark Council,
This is in reference to PCN xyzabc.
The alleged date of contravention is stated as 15/07/2020 and the PCN itself is dated 26/10/2020.
The PCN states, it is issued under the RTA 1991 and London Local Authorities Act 1990 - 2003 and as such, I believe this PCN is Invalid as it's issued well after the 28-day limit allowed for (from the date of alleged contravention) and because it's been served out of time, service out of time being the concomitant of being issued out of time.

I would like to understand the specific grounds and reasons on which this PCN is being served outside of the 28-day limit allowed as per Section 6 of the relevant act and I further believe this PCN is invalid and should be cancelled.

I look forward to hearing from you.
Regards.

This post has been edited by generally-happydog: Wed, 28 Oct 2020 - 19:09

[Neil B]

While below is the draft I have come up with to Southwark council regarding the out of time PCN, can someone confirm that since this PCN has been received by post and has a CCTV angle to it, it's the equivalent of a NTO?

Also, the PCN states reps 'may' be made online - but their online portal limits what you can choose as reasons etc. (surprisingly does not allow for delays or procedural impropriety etc. as reasons one can choose) Does this mean, I should send reps via post? Someone mentioned certificate of posting on one of the stickies.

Any improvements to the below draft most appreciated.

Dear Southwark Council,
This is in reference to PCN xyzabc.
The alleged date of contravention is stated as 15/07/2020 and the PCN itself is dated 26/10/2020.
The PCN states, it is issued under the RTA 1991 and London Local Authorities Act 1990 - 2003 and as such, I believe this PCN is Invalid as it's issued well after the 28-day limit allowed for (from the date of alleged contravention) and because it's been served out of time, service out of time being the concomitant of being issued out of time.

I would like to understand the specific grounds and reasons on which this PCN is being served outside of the 28-day limit allowed as per Section 6 of the relevant act and I further believe this PCN is invalid and should be cancelled.
Please furnish me with a full case history log for this PCN.

I look forward to hearing from you.
Regards.

[PASTMYBEST]

While below is the draft I have come up with to Southwark council regarding the out of time PCN, can someone confirm that since this PCN has been received by post and has a CCTV angle to it, it's the equivalent of a NTO?

Also, the PCN states reps 'may' be made online - but their online portal limits what you can choose as reasons etc. (surprisingly does not allow for delays or procedural impropriety etc. as reasons one can choose) Does this mean, I should send reps via post? Someone mentioned certificate of posting on one of the stickies.

Any improvements to the below draft most appreciated.

Dear Southwark Council,
This is in reference to PCN xyzabc.
The alleged date of contravention is stated as 15/07/2020 and the PCN itself is dated 26/10/2020.
The PCN states, it is issued under the RTA 1991 and London Local Authorities Act 1990 - 2003 and as such, I believe this PCN is Invalid as it's issued well after the 28-day limit allowed for (from the date of alleged contravention) and because it's been served out of time, service out of time being the concomitant of being issued out of time.

I would like to understand the specific grounds and reasons on which this PCN is being served outside of the 28-day limit allowed as per Section 6 of the relevant act and I further believe this PCN is invalid and should be cancelled.
Please furnish me with a full case history log for this PCN.

I look forward to hearing from you.
Regards.

Add in Neils bit in red then go for it

[generally-happyd...]

Thanks folks!
Going with the below later today unless there are suggestions on some edits?

30 October 2020
Southwark Parking Services
Admail 4197,
London
SE1 1ZW

Dear Southwark Parking Services:

Subject: Representation for PCN: xxxxxx
This is in reference to PCN xxxxxx.
The date of the alleged contravention is stated as 15/07/2020 and the PCN itself is dated 26/10/2020.
The PCN states, it is issued under the RTA 1991 and London Local Authorities Act 1990 - 2003 and as such, I believe this PCN is Invalid as it's issued well after the 28-day limit allowed for (from the date of alleged contravention) and because it's been served out of time, service out of time being the concomitant of being issued out of time.
I would like to understand the specific grounds and reasons on which this PCN is being served outside of the 28-day limit allowed as per Section 6 of the relevant act and I further believe this PCN should be cancelled.
Please furnish me with a full case history log for this PCN.
I look forward to hearing from you.
Regards
Sincerely,