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NIP careless driving incorrect date and time (operation snap)
rabitpo00
post Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 10:04
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HI all, 1st post and I have trawled forums and can't find anything similar.

NIP received for "careless driving" at a time and date I am certain my car did not leave the house. Specifically the time is later in the evening after i would have returned from work and not left again til the next morning.

However, the location specified, I can think of an incident on a different date and a completely different time stated. I had thought driver was turning left at a mini roundabout and proceeded, he was turning left. He stopped, i put my hand up to apologise. There was not what I would call "an incident" a minor misdemeanour at most?
I can not even be certain that this is what they are referring to? I am only second guessing.

This has been submitted via Operation Snap so i assume they have dash cam footage if so, which would clarify that the date and time is completely inaccurate - as the evidence would be in broad daylight and not pitch black which it would be if the time on the NIP is correct.

I intend to complete S172 to say not the driver, can not complete section C as no one was driving at that time. And return with a cover letter saying such and that if they have further details or evidence i will certainly assist and identify any driver if i am able to do so?

Can anyone help or advise? this is giving me great worry.

This post has been edited by rabitpo00: Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 10:07
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post Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 10:04
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Logician
post Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 10:25
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You are under no obligation to try to second guess what other date or time they really mean. Reply on their form saying that the car was parked at your address on the day and time stated, and not at the location given. If you have any witnesses to that, mention that. It would be better not to send the cover letter you propose, which suggests you might know more than you do.


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Redivi
post Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 10:46
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I agree

Keep the reply to the bare facts that the car was elsewhere and let the police sort out the mistake
Otherwise you're leaving yourself open to the argument that you haven't been misled by the errors on the NIP

If you delay your reply until near the deadline, it will be much too late for them to send a corrected NIP

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rabitpo00
post Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 11:00
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ok thanks for the replies. so no covering letter at all not even one stating that the car was definately at home at the stated time?

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Logician
post Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 11:08
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QUOTE (rabitpo00 @ Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 11:00) *
ok thanks for the replies. so no covering letter at all not even one stating that the car was definately at home at the stated time?


Say that on their form, do not hesitate to over-write something else if there is no convenient place. If you want to say anything else, add that you can only suppose a number plate has been misread. A covering letter can become separated.









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OUYSINEP
post Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 11:10
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People who have dashcams rarely set the time and date correctly, I Just had to look up operation snap as I had not had the pleasure of hearing of it before,
it looks as statements are taken in the online forms, if the time and date in the footage is not accurate and indeed the submission forms requires a sworn statement from the person submitting the clip in could have written the time and date there as I look at it here, It also gives the option of telling them if the date in the clip is accurate or not.

At this point it is unknown if the submission from the dashcam footage comes with a statement with the correct time and date.

This post has been edited by OUYSINEP: Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 11:15
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cp8759
post Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 11:25
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QUOTE (OUYSINEP @ Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 11:10) *
People who have dashcams rarely set the time and date correctly

Only if it's a cheap camera that doesn't auto-set the time from the GPS satellites.


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Logician
post Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 11:25
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It would be pretty daft of the police to ask about the original time and date if they have a statement correcting that, but it is not impossible.

The wrong time and date must weaken the evidential value, but anyway the OP should not get into suggesting that he might have done something on another occasion, he should simply answer in relation to the time and date he has been asked about.


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OUYSINEP
post Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 11:38
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QUOTE (Logician @ Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 11:25) *
It would be pretty daft of the police to ask about the original time and date if they have a statement correcting that, but it is not impossible.

The wrong time and date must weaken the evidential value, but anyway the OP should not get into suggesting that he might have done something on another occasion, he should simply answer in relation to the time and date he has been asked about.

I agree, perhaps it slipped scrutiny, Sure the force would implement some sort of evidentiary test these clips should meet a "standard" if you will.

Just preparing OP that this maybe a mistake on their part for not reading or forgetting to include a "revised version" of the date and time and maybe re-issued if still within time.

This post has been edited by OUYSINEP: Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 11:39
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cp8759
post Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 11:56
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There are indeed forces that won't accept camera evidence, if the timestamp on the video is wrong.


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Redivi
post Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 12:01
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The usual mistake with dashcams (at least on mine) will be the summertime setting rather than a completely wrong date/time

If the date/time setting was never performed at all, I would expect the year to be also wrong
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rabitpo00
post Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 12:08
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QUOTE (OUYSINEP @ Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 11:38) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 11:25) *
It would be pretty daft of the police to ask about the original time and date if they have a statement correcting that, but it is not impossible.

The wrong time and date must weaken the evidential value, but anyway the OP should not get into suggesting that he might have done something on another occasion, he should simply answer in relation to the time and date he has been asked about.

I agree, perhaps it slipped scrutiny, Sure the force would implement some sort of evidentiary test these clips should meet a "standard" if you will.

Just preparing OP that this maybe a mistake on their part for not reading or forgetting to include a "revised version" of the date and time and maybe re-issued if still within time.


Thanks, yes I'm trying to think what next steps will be. I'm guessing either way, upon my response they will review the evidence and then either realise this does not support an incident at that time and date and I'm thinking there can't be any "slip error " (or whatever it's called) on this one, as time and date is way off and as a I say, i have no idea whether this is even an incident they could be referring to?

So either A) drop it or B) resubmit as a different case? Is there any other outcome i should be worried about? i.e. I return saying not me, they say this disbelieve me (or review evidence and see it is me - but at wrong time and date) and summons me to court? could this even happen in this way? or would need to start the process again to give me chance to say it was me at the corrected time and date?

QUOTE (Redivi @ Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 12:01) *
The usual mistake with dashcams (at least on mine) will be the summertime setting rather than a completely wrong date/time

If the date/time setting was never performed at all, I would expect the year to be also wrong


The year is correct, but most definitely time and potentially even the date are incorrect.

From what I have read, the time and date doesn't have to be correct on the footage, as long as it is correctly detailed in the submission online and in their supporting statement. So this should follow through to the NIP?
What if the submitter incorrectly submitted the information / had typos in their submitted time and date, wondering where this leaves things?

This post has been edited by rabitpo00: Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 12:14
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cp8759
post Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 12:36
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QUOTE (rabitpo00 @ Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 12:08) *
The year is correct, but most definitely time and potentially even the date are incorrect.

From what I have read, the time and date doesn't have to be correct on the footage, as long as it is correctly detailed in the submission online and in their supporting statement. So this should follow through to the NIP?
What if the submitter incorrectly submitted the information / had typos in their submitted time and date, wondering where this leaves things?

The online submission is of little relevance, in practice if this goes to court a proper statement will have to be written and the online submission will be treated as an initial account. The police are likely to double check details at the court stage but even if an error slips in, the witness would be called to court to give live evidence. Unless the error can be shown to be prejudicial, all the witness has to do is give the correct information from the witness stand (and maybe apologise to the court for the error) and the prosecution can continue.

As things stand, your best bet is to respond to the s172 request for the identity of the driver after the 14 day period is up, this prevents the police from serving a new, corrected nip, and will likely see the matter dropped.


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Howard Uno
post Fri, 30 Nov 2018 - 17:44
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If it's just the time that was wrong then that's not enough to cancel the offence. It's easily explained away.


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roythebus
post Fri, 30 Nov 2018 - 19:35
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The police are also known to have had this sort of problem with their own equipment. there was a case on here recently with someone driving on the A20 near Sidcup where he was said to be doing some silly speed when the video clearly showed he wasn't.
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andy_foster
post Sat, 1 Dec 2018 - 21:23
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QUOTE (Howard Uno @ Fri, 30 Nov 2018 - 17:44) *
If it's just the time that was wrong then that's not enough to cancel the offence. It's easily explained away.


I'm not entirely sure what you think you mean by "cancel the offence", but there does appear to be a live issue as to whether or not the apparent failure to specify the time of the alleged offence means that no valid NIP has been served.


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