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Council NTO but no ticket on windscreen, Threads merged
fed25
post Sun, 10 Jan 2016 - 20:51
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Dear All

I received a Notice to Owner on 2 Jan 2106 for parking "wholly or partly in a suspended space". See photo below.

This is the first I had known about the parking contravention as when I got to my car there was no parking ticket on the windscreen.

After viewing the photographs taken by the Parking attendant, it is clear that a ticket was attached to my windscreen at the time of photographing. It also looks as if I have parked in a bay (outside my flats) which was temporarily suspended.

Given the nature of the street and the time of day, I am guessing that a school kid has removed the ticket for a laugh.
I have also found some links that suggest that some parking operators may remove tickets after photographing them. https://bmpa.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/...Ghost-ticketing

I would appreciate advice on two things :

1. The yellow suspended bay sign that was attached to the sign post, nearest to where I had parked, had fallen to the floor. The parking attendant has photographed another sign in the same street, but one much further away from my parking spot. See photos below - the second photo shows the yellow suspended bay sign much further down the road (my car is on the right, behind the other car). Other photos show yellow suspension bay signs but they are not all suspended on the same dates.
How do I know that the sign that the parking officer photographed refers to the bay in which I was parked?

2. Is there a legal basis for challenging the serving of the first notice - ie: the parking ticket?
If my point above is not a valid case to challenge the fine altogether, then I understand that I am liable to pay the fine, BUT only at the reduced amount.

I did call my council parking services and explained point 2., but they said it was my word against theirs and that I should write an appeal. They said that they have acted legally and it is up to the adjudicator's discretion as to whether I would be able to pay the reduced amount.

Please can anyone help. The NTO was served on 30 December 2015.
Needless to say, the £130 fine will cause me some financial worry as a single parent on a low wage.







This post has been edited by fed25: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 - 22:41
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post Sun, 10 Jan 2016 - 20:51
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DancingDad
post Sun, 10 Jan 2016 - 21:04
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Let's see the NTO please, leave in dates and location, blank reg number, name etc.

It is not adjudicator's discretion to allow payment of the reduced amount. It is solely down to the council. They have discretion to do whatever they feel like regarding reducing penalties. Or cancelling them. Why they cannot be honest and just say, we can but won't?

Sorry, rant over.

Sounds like your photos and the CEO photos may well be critical.
Councils have a mandatory duty to sign restrictions so the reasonably alert motorist (who bothers to look) can see them.
A suspension sign on the floor and relying on one that is some distance away doesn't sound too promising for them.

So let's see the photos as well please, CEO ones and yours but please make it clear which are which.
A streetview link will be useful as well.

Forget ghost ticketing. May happen but may just be urban myths. Even if it did, prove it !

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 - 21:06
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fed25
post Sun, 10 Jan 2016 - 21:15
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Thank you for your speedy response, dancing dad.

I have finally managed to post photos- the first two are cropped CEO photos and the last one is my photo of the NTO.

I am not entirely sure how to get a street view link -I will search and share if I can.

This post has been edited by fed25: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 - 21:26
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 10 Jan 2016 - 21:37
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please re post the NTO leave in everything but your name address reg no and NTO no also all photos you mentioned one showing pcn on your car please post


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Incandescent
post Sun, 10 Jan 2016 - 22:04
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As you have an NtO, it is now a total no-brainer to take them all the way to adjudication, as there is no additional cost in doing so, just the PCN penalty if you lose, and you could well win this one with the mendacity of the CEO ignoring the sign that had dropped to the pavement. Just why did he photograph another one much further away ? Is the dropped sign just visible in the first photo by the motorbike, as I see a bit of yellow ?

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DancingDad
post Sun, 10 Jan 2016 - 22:18
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I would like to see the relationship between where you parked, the pole sign with the fallen suspension sign and the pole sign/suspension the CEO photographed.
Streetview will give us this with a little explanation to aid.

If you are parked by the fallen sign, they haven't a leg to stand on. But if closer to the other, could be iffy.
At the moment we simply do not know.
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fed25
post Sun, 10 Jan 2016 - 22:23
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Thank you for your reply Incandescent. When you say "take them to ajudication", do you mean file an appeal with the council or PATAS?

If I lose the case, will I pay the £130 or is there still a chance of paying the reduced amount as I was not given the chance to pay this in the first place?

Yes, the yellow you see in the first photo is a "dropped" sign. How would I legally argue that this is poor signage?
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 10 Jan 2016 - 22:26
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QUOTE
I am not entirely sure how to get a street view link -I will search and share if I can.

let us have the location, we can find it



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fed25
post Sun, 10 Jan 2016 - 22:33
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Dancing Dad - how do I post a street view? Will this compromise my anonymity by posting the street?
The fallen signpost is much closer to my parking spot than the other post.
I could measure the distance tomorrow if this will help my argument.
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DancingDad
post Sun, 10 Jan 2016 - 22:41
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Do measure and make a sketch...this will help in future.

Give us the location, we can sort streetview, anonymity has to compromise somewhat if we are to have any chance of working out what is what.

System is challenge Council, get rejection, then appeal to Adjudicators.
Ys there is a chance of getting the 50% reinstated but in all honesty, at the moment it seems like a 100% winner... if it isn't we will say.
And always do our best to advise you.
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fed25
post Sun, 10 Jan 2016 - 22:49
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Great - I appreciate your clarity.

Location is Lissenden Gardens, Camden NW5 .

Parking officer's photo of sign is outside number 35 (can be seen in photo) but I am parked towards number 65.
Will measure and draw plan tomorrow.
Would my phone call to parking services admitting I parked incorrectly and asking for reduced amount, have any bearing on making a case to cancel the fine on different grounds?
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DancingDad
post Sun, 10 Jan 2016 - 22:56
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QUOTE (fed25 @ Sun, 10 Jan 2016 - 22:49) *
........Would my phone call to parking services admitting I parked incorrectly and asking for reduced amount, have any bearing on making a case to cancel the fine on different grounds?


Not by the time we have put together a challenge for you.

I think sign CEO pictured is this one... outside 46??
And the next one by distant corner, opposite the red car ?
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5571732,-...3312!8i6656

If not, scroll about to locate correctly, copy the link in the address bar and paste it in here.
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fed25
post Sun, 10 Jan 2016 - 23:41
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I am parked by the big 20 (speed limit) sign on the road at this location
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5571732,-...3312!8i6656

I will have to check tomorrow about which post the CEO photographed the sign.
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DancingDad
post Mon, 11 Jan 2016 - 00:16
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Which makes the sign you relied on, by the motorbike in the blurry picks, with the suspension sign at floor level, about three car lengths ahead of you.
And the one the CEO included in his shot of the car and close up, around 5 car lengths behind you.

Please confirm with actual measurements but I reckon we got a good case on inadequate signage.
Please don't tell us that you live by the sign that was festooned with the suspension notice at the proper height.

One other question, where did the picture of the pole sign by the motorbike come from ?
Was it on the NTO ?

Check the council website as well, they may have some more and clearer photos.
Usually under parking, challenge or pay.... you'll need to put in PCN number but if there, you can download and then post the pictures here.
Use a free picture host like photobucket or tinypic and link em. Saves space and hassle.
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fed25
post Mon, 11 Jan 2016 - 12:13
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"Which makes the sign you relied on, by the motorbike in the blurry picks, with the suspension sign at floor level, about three car lengths ahead of you.
And the one the CEO included in his shot of the car and close up, around 5 car lengths behind you." - yes this is correct. See sketch below. PLease note these are approx measurements.

I have also uploaded all photos from Council website (some images cropped). I dont have any of my own photos as I wasnt aware at the time that I had got a ticket.

4 photos were printed on the NTO and 6 photos uploaded onto the council website.

I don't live by the photographed sign. I live fairly nearby, but it is worth noting that these bays were suspended for tree work, therefore the suspension signs said different days and times.
Hence why I got caught out. There is no photographic evidence of the closest sign to my car (the one on the floor) as saying the same suspension time/ date as the photographed one. Could be irrelevant - just thought I would mention.








This post has been edited by fed25: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 - 12:14
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DancingDad
post Mon, 11 Jan 2016 - 16:58
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More later but you have a winner.
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DancingDad
post Mon, 11 Jan 2016 - 19:13
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Dear Sirs
Ref PCN ???

I found no PCN on my vehicle so had no opportunity to challenge this previously.
Whoever removed it have deprived me of my rights to challenge or pay at discount.


Contravention did not Occur

Reviewing the CEO photos does make sense of why I may have fallen foul of a parking suspension as I habitually check, even where I usually park and cannot imagine that I didn't on that occasion.
I note that some of the photos show my vehicle from the front with what look like the yellow of parking suspension signs on the restriction poles. These poles are some 17 meters behind my vehicle.
However, the closest pole and the one I would have checked is 10 meters in front of my vehicle.
There is a CEO photo of this pole (with a motorbike parked by it) and what looks like a yellow sign on the floor.
There is certainly no sign on the pole itself.
Given that this was the closest sign and the one I would have looked at when parking, it was after all, in front of my car and relatively close but had no suspension sign, it cannot be said that the suspension was adequately signed to convey the restriction to a reasonably alert motorist.
As the signage is inadequate, the restriction cannot be enforced and the PCN ought to be cancelled.
Please confirm cancelation
Hugs and kisses

The CEO has done you a favour, they cannot enforce without signing all relevant pole signs as there is no duty for a motorist to check more then one.
Without that photo, I suspect you would have been stuffed and best result a re-offer of the discount.
With that photo and your measurements, I cannot see this losing (No guarantees)
Although you may have to go to adjudication to get the win.

Nothing to lose in doing so and nothing extra to pay so stick with this one.

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 - 19:15
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fed25
post Mon, 1 Feb 2016 - 20:18
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Please advise. I received this notice of rejection on Saturday 30th Jan.





Do you think I have grounds to win this appeal if I take it to PATAS?



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DancingDad
post Mon, 1 Feb 2016 - 22:12
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"I am satisfied that suspension signage was placed on both time plates in the location"
But am totally ignoring the CEO photos that show that one was, at best, loosely draped on the floor.

I despair at times, of how venal they can be.

They have been relatively fair in reinstating the discount, TBH, without the CEO photos, I'd say take it as a good result.
However, as I said earlier in the thread, those photos IMO win it for you.

Personally, I'd take this to appeal and be applying for costs as they are being wholly unreasonable not only ignoring their own evidence but being cavalier with the truth regarding signs.
It is your money and your risk however.
Can never guarantee 100% but this is better then most we see.

Contravention did not occur due to inadequate signage, as already detailed within formal challenge and evidenced by their own photos
Procedural Impropriety for either being economical with the truth regarding signage in place or failing to consider as their own photos show this to be incorrect.
Plus costs as being wholly unreasonable in forcing such an obviously flagrant disregard of their mandatory duty, to place and maintain signage such is needed to adequately convey restrictions, to adjudication.
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fed25
post Mon, 1 Feb 2016 - 22:20
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Thanks for speedy reply Dancing Dad.

So what is reasonable distance for signage? Can they not argue that there was adequate signage on the other post, behind my car?
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