PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice Support health workers

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Broxbourne PCN - DYL - stopped for 30seconds
Mr_MG
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 12:02
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 144
Joined: 25 Feb 2007
Member No.: 10,834



Hi,

Can I get your advice on this please smile.gif

I stopped at this location to pick up my wife from a shop - I literally got out of the car (I coudnt see any restriction period signs), walked around the corner and came back. My mrs said she was going to be longer than expected, so I returned to the car to leave - and saw the CEO still in the process of issuing the ticket.

This was the PCN:-





Note the 1 minitue observation period.

So I sent in an informal appeal via email. I didnt have my appeal saved, but I essentially said "I note the observation period was 1 minute. Was this fair and enough time to confirm whether I was loading\unloading"

I subsequently received this rejection:-







The pictures from the evidence show 56 seconds from the first picture, to when the PCN was attached. 8 seconds later, you can make me out in the car.





I'm aware of the fact that Broxbourne's option to pay by phone incurrs a cost and therefore could possibly make the PCN non-compliant.

But I wanted to get some input on the sub 1 minute observation period.

Happy to hear your thoughts.

Thanks
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
3 Pages V   1 2 3 >  
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 19)
Advertisement
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 12:02
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
stamfordman
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 12:16
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,582
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



They are asking for evidence of loading in which case they will cancel.

Sadly you can't provide this but you can say you only stopped in anticipation of boarding (also an exemption) and then moved off as soon as you found the person wasn't ready but it's a thin one. Is wife disabled/in need of assistance?

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neil B
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 12:28
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 29,263
Joined: 16 Jan 2008
Member No.: 16,671



Why are they talking about loading?

We need to see your challenge.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 12:33
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,582
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 12:28) *
Why are they talking about loading?

We need to see your challenge.



'So I sent in an informal appeal via email. I didnt have my appeal saved, but I essentially said "I note the observation period was 1 minute. Was this fair and enough time to confirm whether I was loading\unloading"'


OP - the observation time is not a grace period. PCNs can be issued when a CEO doesn't see exempt activity. You raised the loading issue and to be fair they are asking you for evidence...

You were also probably stopped for more than 30 secs - makes no difference whether you are in or out of car.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 12:36
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mr_MG
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 13:03
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 144
Joined: 25 Feb 2007
Member No.: 10,834



Thanks @stamfordman - no disabilities etc. Noted on the grace period. Thanks for clarifying.

*whing time* - I know by the letter of the law, I was stopped, but common sense should apply. Their evidence shows 56 seconds. IF I was stopped for longer, they could have also recorded that


Anyway, if the letter of the law applies to me, then it applies to them too.

Aside from the 0845 payment line, these lines dont seem to be in a fit state


Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 13:18
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,582
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



Post their pics - from the PCN the lines look substantially compliant, which is all they need to be.

On observation time they do allow 5 mins, but for commercial vehicles.

https://www.broxbourne.gov.uk/sites/default...olicy%20pdf.pdf

Think any PCN faults and 0845 number are your best bets if you want to risk the full penalty.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
zwekk
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 13:23
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 120
Joined: 10 Nov 2018
Member No.: 100,869



Forget the lines, as they look fine in the photos under your car.

Common sense does apply, in terms of "de minimis". Can you account for the 1 minute? Did you simply go straight in to advise that you were ready to pick her up or did you have a longer conversation? Was one of you lacking a working mobile phone, etc?

I guess you felt that "loading" included passengers?

This post has been edited by zwekk: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 13:23
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 16:21
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,655
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



You put a banana skin under your foot with the loading but we are where we are. Assisted boarding is allowed, that the boarding is frustrated does not negate the reason for the stop.

but you are claiming an exemption, so the onus of proof falls to you. Where was you wife what was she doing? What time had you arranged to collect her? A statement from your wife, from the hairdresser will support your contention so submit them.

With regard to the 0845 number, I used this recently in an informal challenge, amend it to suite if you wish

Informal challenge against the imposition of PCN number xxxxxxxx
Vehicle registration mark aa23bcd


A motorist must obey many laws rules and regulations when driving and also when parking. If the breach any of these rules then there are penalties. Parking in this instance being governed under the decriminalised parking scheme under the TMA of 2004.

The council also must follow the regulations laid down in the applicable legislation. The amount of the penalty the council can impose is set by regulation. In this case it is ÂŁ70 reduced to ÂŁ35 if paid within 14 days.

The council however give a method of payment as over the telephone, for this they operate an 0845 enhanced rate telephone number and set a service fee of 03p per minute.

Trafford council require that any person wishing to take advantage of this method of payment do pay a sum greater than 100% of the statutory penalty. This has been ruled in the high court to be demanding a penalty that exceeds the statutory amount.

One of the statutory grounds of appeal against a PCN is that the penalty exceeds the amount in the circumstances of the case. This is the case here. This PCN should now be cancelled and I look forward to confirmation of such in the near future


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 17:00
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,726
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



Boarding applies assuming pre-arranged ie, I'll pick you up at 4pm...…. then when no show, tried to find.
Time allowed includes time to locate the passenger.
Makda case applies.........https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/default/files/keycases/R%20%28Makda%29%20v%20The%20Parking%20Adjudicator.pdf
Not 100% an adjudicator would agree but I would argue that in preference to observation time or state of the lines.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mr_MG
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 17:48
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 144
Joined: 25 Feb 2007
Member No.: 10,834



@pastmybest - thanks for the informal appeal. Thats very useful. In my formal appeal, the basis for my appeal was that the 1 minute observation period was so short - how could they rule out that i wasnt loading\unloading. I didnt actually state that I was loading\unloading. They just assumed I was from my (admittedly not clear) question.

@DancingDad - Thanks for the info. very intresting...


I cannot make a further informal appeal at this stage (they only allow 1), so I'll wait for the NTO before I draft my response.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neil B
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 21:08
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 29,263
Joined: 16 Jan 2008
Member No.: 16,671



QUOTE (Mr_MG @ Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 17:48) *
I cannot make a further informal appeal at this stage (they only allow 1),

Who told you that?

I agree with PMB re the banana skin; detracting from your exemption.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 22:06
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,582
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



Banana skin not right - more of a shot to the foot.

OP will need to weigh up whether to punt the full ÂŁ70 on this. A reasonable chance given the genuinely short stop for what should have been an exempt pick up, and the 0845 number.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 22:43
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,726
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



Don't wait for the NTO.
If only to clarify the situation and correct the misunderstanding, write back now.
They have offered a get out re loading.
You obviously cannot claim it or supply the evidence but if not dealt with is likely to haunt the rest of the process.
Can also use it to advance a more appropriate challenge point.

Dear Sirs
REf PCN ????
Your letter dated ????
May I correct an obvious misunderstanding.
I was not loading, I only mentioned this as a reason why a longer observation period should have been applied as is often the normal policy.
I had actually stopped solely for the purpose of picking up my wife who had been having her hair done (or whatever it was)
We had pre-arranged for her to be waiting at ???? time and I duly turned up to find she was not there.
I left the car briefly, knowing where she was likely to be (hairdresser???) and was told she was not ready.
I returned to the car immediately to move it, the boarding process frustrated but nevertheless, the stop was solely for boarding.
I attach proof of the appointment (receipts or the like) to verify the situation.
I trust this is now clear.
Hugs and kisses.


I've put in hairdresser as an example but put in what sort of shop, name, address and brief details that may make the story credible.
Ie dress fitting, ordering curtains, whatever it was.
Don't get carried away and don't tell lies.
This is only to correct the loading and set the scene for formal challenge at NTO stage.
Has an added benefit that they may simply ignore or come back with a comment like "you cannot challenge further until NTO stage"
Which adds technical reasons (failing to consider) to future challenges.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
peterguk
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 22:48
Post #14


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 13,735
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Member No.: 14,720



QUOTE (Mr_MG @ Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 12:02) *
I coudnt see any restriction period signs


For future reference, DYLs are a 24/7 restriction and therefore don't require a time plate.


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 22:57
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,582
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



Hope it isn't the hairdresser - has there ever been an appointment that ends on time in history.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 23:20
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,726
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 22:57) *
Hope it isn't the hairdresser - has there ever been an appointment that ends on time in history.



biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

Makes no difference.
If OP can show a genuine belief (probably to an adjudicator) that they expected wife to be there, they are covered by the boarding exemption.
This applies even if wife is a no show.
It becomes a greyer area once OP did not immediately drive away but instead chose to leave the vehicle.
But is not insurmountable and can win as long as the adjudicator accepts this was simply trying to make contact and thus part of boarding.
I linked to Makda before.
I also recall a case from one of our prolific collectors of PCNs, Xtreme??
He had arranged to pick up his good lady, parked and wandered into her office to collect her.... won the case.
Though to be fair, he often seemed to win not on any specific but simply cos he brought every argument to bear and never gave up.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 01:48
Post #17


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (DancingDad @ Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 23:20) *
I linked to Makda before.

Clickable link smile.gif https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2010/3392.html


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 09:08
Post #18


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 35,049
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



Discount period ends tomorrow.

On the basis of what we know, I'd pay it.

At present we seem to be inventing a menu of possible lines of defence when there is no evidence in your account that you have clearly stated that any apply or made representations to this effect.

If you are prepared to sign statements of truth to the effect that by pre-arrangement you expected your wife to be at the corner then you could try this at adjudication.

You know the truth, we don't?

Your choice.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 09:09
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mr_MG
post Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 14:30
Post #19


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 144
Joined: 25 Feb 2007
Member No.: 10,834



@neilb - Their website says only one informal appeal per PCN - https://www.broxbourne.gov.uk/resident-envi...g/challenge-pcn

I appreciate everyones input. I was picking up my wife who was getting take away food from a shop thats on the main road. She told me to meet her at 7:15 at that location (as stopping on the main road was not an option). However, she was delayed slightly as the shop took longer than expected. I went to find her as I incorrectly assumed she would almost be ready and I can give her a hand.

This helps with the background. Please note, I appreciate that I'm probably on thin ice with the defence etc. However, the complainer inside of me wants to challenge on the finer technical points i.e 0845 number, etc etc. If I stopped for an hour, I would hold my hands up geniuely. 56 seconds just makes we want to fight back!

I'll draft up a 2nd informal response. wont do any harm.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 14:50
Post #20


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



Well this is golddust, a council admitting they're acting unlawfully.

Their website: Only one informal challenge will be considered for each PCN.

The law:

if representations against the penalty charge are received at such address as may be specified for the purpose before a notice to owner is served—
(i)those representations will be considered;


That's a procedural impropriety before we've even started.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

3 Pages V   1 2 3 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Thursday, 28th March 2024 - 09:09
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.
IPS Driver Error

IPS Driver Error

There appears to be an error with the database.
You can try to refresh the page by clicking here