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High St. Bus Lane
drquantum
post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 01:04
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2nd ticket I've been slammed with now, the other for sitting in my car at a gas station and eating a sandwich I'd just purchased - I know ignorance is not an excuse but as a Canadian traveling in the UK this whole experience with city cash grabs and obscure signage has been infuriating. Hoping some of you good folks might be able to offer some help/advice.

The notice I received (which just arrived today 11/22/18) was posted on October 11, 2018 - Does that already prevent me for being able to file an appeal, or do I have some grounds to contest this given that the notice was not received by me in time?

The evidence provided is a GIF of me passing through the light at this junction: http://prntscr.com/lltyv8

To my best approximation this screenshot illustrates the path and distance they have me on tape for (I'm unclear how much of this is a bus lane): http://prntscr.com/lltzyc


cctv image 1: http://prntscr.com/llufas and 2 + video: http://prntscr.com/llufti - I feel it's noteworthy that in the first picture (link) the diamond markings on the ground which I'm just now seeing are obviously faded and not clearly visible.

I understand that in most cases they will reject and then I can take it up with the tribunal. I guess I'm looking to get a sense of whether I have a case and whether there's some kind of templated email I can send them.

Thanks!

This post has been edited by drquantum: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 02:18
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Mad Mick V
post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 07:04
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Hire car?

Why the delay in getting the PCN to you?

On the face of it, if you passed those signs you are in contravention so we need to consider errors in the documentation/procedures etc.

If it is a hire car we probably need to see the hire agreement to determine whether liability can be passed to you.

Mick
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cp8759
post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 10:01
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Show us the notice in full.


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drquantum
post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 12:01
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 08:04) *
Hire car?

Why the delay in getting the PCN to you?

On the face of it, if you passed those signs you are in contravention so we need to consider errors in the documentation/procedures etc.

If it is a hire car we probably need to see the hire agreement to determine whether liability can be passed to you.

Mick


Hi yes, it was a hire car ... No idea why the delay, I was hoping that might be something that could work in my favor. In the noticr from the hire company (Avis) they say in accordance with our tos we have paid the fine for you (plus 30 pound admin fee).

Also in the TOS this was the only clause I could find about traffic/parking violations: http://prntscr.com/lm0arp

If your excess does not apply, we will be entitled to claim losses or damages against you in an amount
equal to the severity of the negligence up to the full amount of the damage or loss we have incurred or
will incur (whichever is the greater), to the extent allowed under applicable law.

8) Fines and Charges. You must pay for any parking charges or traffic fines incurred during the rental period
related to your use of the vehicle. You must pay our processing fee to cover our time in dealing with these
fines or charges, unless you are able to show that no loss or damage has occurred or if incurred, is significantly
lower than the processing fee.


QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 11:01) *
Show us the notice in full.


https://photos.app.goo.gl/PmrkUKefGdaRVgqW9 thanks for any assistance you can offer.

This post has been edited by drquantum: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 12:03
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cp8759
post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 12:16
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If those morons have paid the fine, it's their own fault. Their own terms and conditions state that they can recover a fine from you. They state they will take payment for "The fine or charge itself - if we have to pay it". The thing is, they didn't have to pay it, they chose to do so voluntarily and that is not your fault.

On top of this, there's known flaws on BANES PCNs so it might have been possible to pay nothing at all. Anyway, you need to show us the covering letter from Avis.


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drquantum
post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 12:43
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 13:16) *
If those morons have paid the fine, it's their own fault. Their own terms and conditions state that they can recover a fine from you. They state they will take payment for "The fine or charge itself - if we have to pay it". The thing is, they didn't have to pay it, they chose to do so voluntarily and that is not your fault.

On top of this, there's known flaws on BANES PCNs so it might have been possible to pay nothing at all. Anyway, you need to show us the covering letter from Avis.



Ohh I like the sound of that ..here is the cover letter https://photos.app.goo.gl/KBb7Zas8SXkkSc2V8 It seems to indicate that as per their tos they have paid the fine for me but only if their prohibited from passing on my information.

Hmm also, isn't it odd that the cover letter is dated 10/25/2018 while the notice was posted 10/11/2018? Both letters were mailed together in the same envelope.

This post has been edited by drquantum: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 12:46
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cp8759
post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 13:00
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In the UK date formats are DD/MM/YYYY, things will get really confused if you flip these round. Today is 23/11/2018.

Here is what I would reply with:

-----

Dear Sir or Madam,

While I agree I am liable to pay your reasonable administrative fees for dealing with Penalty Charge Notices, you were under no legal obligation to pay the Penalty Charge. Had you appealed the PCN on the statutory ground that you are a hire company and the vehicle was on hire at the relevant time, the council would have cancelled the PCNs issued to Avis and it would have issued a new PCN directly to me, so that I could take up any dispute about the notice first with the council, and ultimately with the Traffic Penalty Tribunal.

Had I had the chance to do so, I would have submitted representations to the issuing authority and if the issuing authority had rejected this, I would have appealed to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, this being the statutory tribunal established by law to deal with these matters. The outcome of the statutory appeal process is now unknowable because by voluntarily paying the PCNs, even though you could have transferred liability to me, you have eliminated any possibility of an appeal. This is because payment of a PCN closes the case as far as the statutory process is concerned.

I draw your attention to the fact that you are not a judicial tribunal and you are in no qualified position to determine whether an appeal to the tribunal would have been successful, therefore any feelings you might have as to the likelihood of success of any appeal is irrelevant. I also draw your attention to the fact that, had liability for the PCN been transferred to me, as envisaged by the statutory scheme created by Parliament for these circumstances, the PCNs would no longer be any of your concern in any event. The outcome of any appeal would have been a matter between me and the council and would be, in all honesty, none of your business.

By voluntarily paying the PCN when you could have transferred liability free of charge, you have effectively suffered a self-inflicted loss. You were simply not under any obligation to pay the PCN and you chose to do so for reasons only known to yourselves. Self-evidently, I am not liable for any self-inflicted losses you may suffer.

I also note your terms and conditions state that you will only seek to recover a penalty charge notice from me if you have to pay it. You didn't have to pay the PCN, you could have transferred liability to me instead. Therefore under your own terms and condition, you are not entitled to recover a Penalty Charge Notice from me when you are not legally required to pay the charge, as in this case.

If you are to make voluntary donations to anyone in future, I might suggest you donate funds to a worthy charity rather than Bath and North East Somerset Council. Alternatively, you might want to provide better training to the staff who deal with such correspondence, I assume the £30 handling charge covers the cost of any such training needs.


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drquantum
post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 13:19
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 14:00) *
In the UK date formats are DD/MM/YYYY, things will get really confused if you flip these round. Today is 23/11/2018.

Here is what I would reply with:

-----

Dear Sir or Madam,

While I agree I am liable to pay your reasonable administrative fees for dealing with Penalty Charge Notices, you were under no legal obligation to pay the Penalty Charge. Had you appealed the PCN on the statutory ground that you are a hire company and the vehicle was on hire at the relevant time, the council would have cancelled the PCNs issued to Avis and it would have issued a new PCN directly to me, so that I could take up any dispute about the notice first with the council, and ultimately with the Traffic Penalty Tribunal.

Had I had the chance to do so, I would have submitted representations to the issuing authority and if the issuing authority had rejected this, I would have appealed to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, this being the statutory tribunal established by law to deal with these matters. The outcome of the statutory appeal process is now unknowable because by voluntarily paying the PCNs, even though you could have transferred liability to me, you have eliminated any possibility of an appeal. This is because payment of a PCN closes the case as far as the statutory process is concerned.

I draw your attention to the fact that you are not a judicial tribunal and you are in no qualified position to determine whether an appeal to the tribunal would have been successful, therefore any feelings you might have as to the likelihood of success of any appeal is irrelevant. I also draw your attention to the fact that, had liability for the PCN been transferred to me, as envisaged by the statutory scheme created by Parliament for these circumstances, the PCNs would no longer be any of your concern in any event. The outcome of any appeal would have been a matter between me and the council and would be, in all honesty, none of your business.

By voluntarily paying the PCN when you could have transferred liability free of charge, you have effectively suffered a self-inflicted loss. You were simply not under any obligation to pay the PCN and you chose to do so for reasons only known to yourselves. Self-evidently, I am not liable for any self-inflicted losses you may suffer.

I also note your terms and conditions state that you will only seek to recover a penalty charge notice from me if you have to pay it. You didn't have to pay the PCN, you could have transferred liability to me instead. Therefore under your own terms and condition, you are not entitled to recover a Penalty Charge Notice from me when you are not legally required to pay the charge, as in this case.

If you are to make voluntary donations to anyone in future, I might suggest you donate funds to a worthy charity rather than Bath and North East Somerset Council. Alternatively, you might want to provide better training to the staff who deal with such correspondence, I assume the £30 handling charge covers the cost of any such training needs.


Wow thank you so much for that. So as far as you're concerned I should pay the 30pound admin fee and dispute the notice fine that they paid on my behalf?

Regarding the dates what I mean is that they say that it will be considered served within two days of posting date yet it arrived in an envelope with the cover letter that is dated 2 weeks from posting date so how could the notice have been served earlier than that cover letter date.




I just sent that email and also felt I should point out that I emailed them in a separate message 2 weeks ago explicitly instructing them not to pay any fines on my behalf as I would be filing an appeal. They didn't reply to that email so I reiterated that I'd sent that request previously in the template you provided above.

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cp8759
post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 13:19
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The notice is deemed served on Avis two days after posting, the notice is not in your name so strictly speaking it's nothing to do with you. There's a reason it says "do not pass this notice to the driver".

The admin fee of £30 is there to cover the cost of employing staff who deal with such correspondence. That staff will need to be employed regardless of whether the correspondence they receive was correctly issued or not, having to pay such fees is a risk you accept in using a hire car. The only way to avoid this risk is to, well, not hire a car.

On the other hand, if Avis mess you around and keep harassing you for the £30 penalty, you might have grounds to make a complaint and possibly get the £30 refunded.


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zwekk
post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 13:44
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The council (BaNES) had to quash and refund a lot of penalties due to late notice on the other side of the junction. However, since then I imagine the council have been much more careful to ensure compliance. Here for example, there is "all traffic" written on the road. Without that, the council would probably have lost an appeal as they did previously.

However, the lines do appear to be faded and ought to be repainted.

BTW the "diamonds" are inductive loops, presumably to delay the lights changing if a vehicle is detected on the section. No such diamond markings exist in UK.
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cp8759
post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 13:55
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zwekk as Avis have paid the penalty that all seems irrelevant now.


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drquantum
post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 14:38
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 14:55) *
zwekk as Avis have paid the penalty that all seems irrelevant now.


Avis seems to be giving me the runaround and hasn't replied to any of my emails in a number of weeks - hopefully this latest response citing the information you've provided (thanks again) will coax them into replying. If not, I will give them a call.

Are you familiar with any cases similar to this where the hire company pays the fine without consent? Just trying to get a sense of how else I should prepare my response or if the fact that I'm calling them out for paying without my consent is enough to have them reverse the charge.

Also I don't know how often you hear this but honestly I'm tremendously grateful for you guys and the help you provide here. You have no obligation to do so and you're doing it for free. For someone from a foreign country the distance, and unfamiliarity with the laws leaves you feeling completely helpless and vulnerable and it's such a blessing to be able to get the assistance that you guys provide here. So thanks again.

This post has been edited by drquantum: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 14:35
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cp8759
post Sat, 24 Nov 2018 - 11:51
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QUOTE (drquantum @ Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 14:38) *
Are you familiar with any cases similar to this where the hire company pays the fine without consent? Just trying to get a sense of how else I should prepare my response or if the fact that I'm calling them out for paying without my consent is enough to have them reverse the charge.

Seems to happen all the time to be honest. More often than not we don't hear the outcome, but we had one recently where the company admitted they'd messed up and ended up refunding all the charges.

QUOTE (drquantum @ Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 14:38) *
Also I don't know how often you hear this but honestly I'm tremendously grateful for you guys and the help you provide here. You have no obligation to do so and you're doing it for free. For someone from a foreign country the distance, and unfamiliarity with the laws leaves you feeling completely helpless and vulnerable and it's such a blessing to be able to get the assistance that you guys provide here. So thanks again.

Well the owners of the site rely on donations to keep it running, I'm sure they would appreciate any contribution you could make. And if you're ever in my neck of the woods you can buy me a pint :-)


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Neil B
post Sat, 24 Nov 2018 - 14:00
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I'm just a bit concerned that if Avis have your card details they'll take the money anyway -- or have done?
Have you checked?

I think we've seen that happen.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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drquantum
post Tue, 25 Dec 2018 - 12:23
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 24 Nov 2018 - 12:51) *
QUOTE (drquantum @ Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 14:38) *
Are you familiar with any cases similar to this where the hire company pays the fine without consent? Just trying to get a sense of how else I should prepare my response or if the fact that I'm calling them out for paying without my consent is enough to have them reverse the charge.

Seems to happen all the time to be honest. More often than not we don't hear the outcome, but we had one recently where the company admitted they'd messed up and ended up refunding all the charges.

QUOTE (drquantum @ Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 14:38) *
Also I don't know how often you hear this but honestly I'm tremendously grateful for you guys and the help you provide here. You have no obligation to do so and you're doing it for free. For someone from a foreign country the distance, and unfamiliarity with the laws leaves you feeling completely helpless and vulnerable and it's such a blessing to be able to get the assistance that you guys provide here. So thanks again.

Well the owners of the site rely on donations to keep it running, I'm sure they would appreciate any contribution you could make. And if you're ever in my neck of the woods you can buy me a pint :-)



I will definitely buy you a pint and any admins that want to join the next time I'm in your neck of the woods smile.gif

I lost this site and tried for so long to find it again! So glad I remembered the tagline about 'helping motorists get justice' that was how I eventually found it.

Thanks for all your input. Unfortunately Avis responded saying that their decision remains unchanged because Bath reviewed my appeal and upheld the violation but they (Avis) completely ignored the closing statement in Bath's letter which said that because the hire company had exercised their right to pay the fine the case had been closed.

I followed up with this email:

Hi **, I think we're going full circle here. As per the end of their letter:

"The authorisation provided by Avis Budget UK Ltd does not transfer liability to yourself. As they have
exercised their right as the registered keeper/owner of the vehicle and made payment of the charge, the
case has been closed."

As per my original email:

"Had I had the chance to do so, I would have submitted representations to
the issuing authority and if the issuing authority had rejected this, I
would have appealed to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal,
this being the
statutory tribunal established by law to deal with these matters."

By paying out the fine, without notifying me you have denied me the ability to file this appeal with the tribunal, regardless of the outcome of the issuing authority's review. Avis was under no legal obligation to pay the fine and could have appealed the decision on the grounds they were a hire company and had the notice sent to me instead. In fact, AVIS never even informed me that there was a violation issued from BATHNES parking authority.

Avis responded:

Thank you for your response.


I regret to inform you that our position on this matter remains unchanged. If you wish to take this matter further I must advise that you do so via a third party as you have now exhausted the Avis Budget Group internal escalation process. I apologise if this is not the response you were hoping for.

Any ideas on whether there are any options left to me at this point? Avis has already taken the money out of my credit card and my bank wont even allow me to dispute it which is mind boggling to me that a private car park operator charge can't be disputed to Visa under literally any circumstance whatsoever.

I found this article which seems to have some good options: https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/adv...ar-hire-company but would really appreciate any further advice you have.

Thanks!

QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 24 Nov 2018 - 15:00) *
I'm just a bit concerned that if Avis have your card details they'll take the money anyway -- or have done?
Have you checked?

I think we've seen that happen.



Yes they had my card on file and wasted no time in charging me. Actually, I had already been charged by Avis at the time this thread was originally posted.

This post has been edited by drquantum: Tue, 25 Dec 2018 - 12:27
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cp8759
post Fri, 28 Dec 2018 - 15:49
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drquantum is it a debit or credit card that you used to pay?


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drquantum
post Sat, 29 Dec 2018 - 01:39
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 28 Dec 2018 - 16:49) *
drquantum is it a debit or credit card that you used to pay?


Credit card, they already charged it and bank says VISA policy prohibits disputes on any parking/traffic related charges regardless of whether the issuer is a private entity.
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cp8759
post Sat, 29 Dec 2018 - 02:54
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QUOTE (drquantum @ Sat, 29 Dec 2018 - 01:39) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 28 Dec 2018 - 16:49) *
drquantum is it a debit or credit card that you used to pay?


Credit card, they already charged it and bank says VISA policy prohibits disputes on any parking/traffic related charges regardless of whether the issuer is a private entity.

So ask to the bank to provide a copy of this policy, we can look at making a formal complaint against the bank. The more satisfying route would be to take Avis to the small claims court (the court issue fee is just £25 for this sort of amount) but it's worth trying to get the money out of the bank first.


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drquantum
post Sat, 29 Dec 2018 - 12:49
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 29 Dec 2018 - 03:54) *
QUOTE (drquantum @ Sat, 29 Dec 2018 - 01:39) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 28 Dec 2018 - 16:49) *
drquantum is it a debit or credit card that you used to pay?


Credit card, they already charged it and bank says VISA policy prohibits disputes on any parking/traffic related charges regardless of whether the issuer is a private entity.

So ask to the bank to provide a copy of this policy, we can look at making a formal complaint against the bank. The more satisfying route would be to take Avis to the small claims court (the court issue fee is just £25 for this sort of amount) but it's worth trying to get the money out of the bank first.




Hmm that's an interesting thought, I will give it a try. I think it's specifically VISA's policy that the bank has to abide by so perhaps I will contact VISA first. At this point I would be willing to pay more than the actual fine to get this reversed just as a matter of principal. I don't want to obviously but I'm so infuriated that they can just get a way with this and there's no recourse for the motorist.

Will reach out first thing Monday and keep you posted on any progress - thanks for your input!

edit: I just sent a quick email off so hopefully will hear back sooner. I looked into uk small claims and that actually looks to be an incredibly more satisfying option. Do you think I have a good shot at winning that case?

edit 2: is this the small claims process you're referring to: https://www.moneyclaims.service.gov.uk/ ? - I started the process to see what was involved but hit an error that I couldn't use the service because I don't have a UK postal address (I'm living in Canada and was visiting the UK).


This post has been edited by drquantum: Sat, 29 Dec 2018 - 13:22
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cp8759
post Sat, 29 Dec 2018 - 17:54
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QUOTE (drquantum @ Sat, 29 Dec 2018 - 12:49) *
Hmm that's an interesting thought, I will give it a try. I think it's specifically VISA's policy that the bank has to abide by so perhaps I will contact VISA first. At this point I would be willing to pay more than the actual fine to get this reversed just as a matter of principal. I don't want to obviously but I'm so infuriated that they can just get a way with this and there's no recourse for the motorist.

Will reach out first thing Monday and keep you posted on any progress - thanks for your input!

edit: I just sent a quick email off so hopefully will hear back sooner. I looked into uk small claims and that actually looks to be an incredibly more satisfying option. Do you think I have a good shot at winning that case?

edit 2: is this the small claims process you're referring to: https://www.moneyclaims.service.gov.uk/ ? - I started the process to see what was involved but hit an error that I couldn't use the service because I don't have a UK postal address (I'm living in Canada and was visiting the UK).

Is your bank a Canadian bank? In the UK if your bank rejected a complaint you would have access to the Financial Ombudsman Service (https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk), but obviously that would not extend to a Canadian bank. That's aside from the fact that if the bank is indeed bound by Visa's policy, you may have no basis to complaint anyway (hence we need to see the policy).

The small claims court is a far more satisfying route, and in all honesty there's a good chance they won't bother fighting the case (even if they did, IMO you would win). However in practice you need to have an address for service in the United Kingdom. Do you have any friends or relatives at who's address you could received post, and could scan / email it to you?


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