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Jump Start- Red Light in Traffic
speedfighter23
post Fri, 29 Nov 2019 - 12:27
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Hey guys, central london traffic madness, lights had turned red but I believed I was past the red traffic line when stationary in traffic before moving again (not 100%) sure. When traffic was clear accelerated but then realised pedestrians started to cross so just stopped on the crossing after the line and reversed a bit.

Is it only an offence if i started moving after the light had turned red before I crossed the line from stationary?

No red light cameras on that junction but you never know with the dashcam brigade, maybe someone can send the footage!
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post Fri, 29 Nov 2019 - 12:27
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Jlc
post Fri, 29 Nov 2019 - 12:33
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Ignoring amber, an offence occurs if any part of your vehicle moves over the stop line whilst red is displayed.


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speedfighter23
post Fri, 29 Nov 2019 - 13:33
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 29 Nov 2019 - 12:33) *
Ignoring amber, an offence occurs if any part of your vehicle moves over the stop line whilst red is displayed.


I meant if you are stationary in traffic and you have crossed the traffic light line when it is green but are stuck just in front of the line in traffic and then it turns red and obviously you cannot proceed but you are 'in limbo' after the red but before the junction.
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southpaw82
post Fri, 29 Nov 2019 - 14:07
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Has any part of your vehicle crossed the line while the light is red?


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DancingDad
post Fri, 29 Nov 2019 - 14:22
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QUOTE (speedfighter23 @ Fri, 29 Nov 2019 - 13:33) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 29 Nov 2019 - 12:33) *
Ignoring amber, an offence occurs if any part of your vehicle moves over the stop line whilst red is displayed.


I meant if you are stationary in traffic and you have crossed the traffic light line when it is green but are stuck just in front of the line in traffic and then it turns red and obviously you cannot proceed but you are 'in limbo' after the red but before the junction.

You've answered your own question, if you cross the line on green then you cannot be contravening it on red.
Silly driving to blindly follow traffic into no man's land without an exit but that is another matter.
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Fredd
post Fri, 29 Nov 2019 - 15:02
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QUOTE (speedfighter23 @ Fri, 29 Nov 2019 - 12:27) *
lights had turned red but I believed I was past the red traffic line when stationary in traffic before moving again (not 100%) sure. When traffic was clear accelerated but then realised pedestrians started to cross so just stopped on the crossing after the line and reversed a bit.


QUOTE (speedfighter23 @ Fri, 29 Nov 2019 - 13:33) *
I meant if you are stationary in traffic and you have crossed the traffic light line when it is green but are stuck just in front of the line in traffic and then it turns red and obviously you cannot proceed but you are 'in limbo' after the red but before the junction.


Maybe it's just me, but those sound like quite different descriptions of the event - in particular the parts I've highlighted.


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speedfighter23
post Fri, 29 Nov 2019 - 15:23
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QUOTE (Fredd @ Fri, 29 Nov 2019 - 15:02) *
QUOTE (speedfighter23 @ Fri, 29 Nov 2019 - 12:27) *
lights had turned red but I believed I was past the red traffic line when stationary in traffic before moving again (not 100%) sure. When traffic was clear accelerated but then realised pedestrians started to cross so just stopped on the crossing after the line and reversed a bit.


QUOTE (speedfighter23 @ Fri, 29 Nov 2019 - 13:33) *
I meant if you are stationary in traffic and you have crossed the traffic light line when it is green but are stuck just in front of the line in traffic and then it turns red and obviously you cannot proceed but you are 'in limbo' after the red but before the junction.


Maybe it's just me, but those sound like quite different descriptions of the event - in particular the parts I've highlighted.


Basically my only concern is whether i had moved from stationary after having passed the traffic light line or not. Because if I did not, and it was Red, that's where the offence is, but if I had started moving again from stationary from beyond the line even though the light was red, then there is no offence, and that's what I was trying to clarify.

Again, it's not red traffic light camera, it's just if someone posts dashcam footage to the police.

QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 29 Nov 2019 - 14:07) *
Has any part of your vehicle crossed the line while the light is red?


That is what I don't know for sure as I was in traffic and I don't know if I crossed the line or not before I started moving again. It was in night in traffic and I was following traffic, so it wasn't just trying to run a red light, by the time I started moving again following the traffic, the light had turned red but I was not 100% sure if I was moving from beyond the line or before the line before I realised it turned red and stopped the car as pedestrians started to cross.
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southpaw82
post Fri, 29 Nov 2019 - 16:34
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If you don’t know, and none of use were there, how are we meant to answer your question?


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speedfighter23
post Fri, 29 Nov 2019 - 16:43
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 29 Nov 2019 - 16:34) *
If you don’t know, and none of use were there, how are we meant to answer your question?


I just wanted to see if it was an offence to start moving on a red after you have passed the line from stationary, and you guys have answered that thanks.

I also wanted to know if any of you had intel on how dashcam footage can give evidence for red light running if it happened, which in this case would be from a car low down versus a red light camera which is obviously mounted high enough to show where the red light lines are to confirm a vehicle has crossed a red light past the traffic light line.
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cp8759
post Fri, 29 Nov 2019 - 23:02
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QUOTE (speedfighter23 @ Fri, 29 Nov 2019 - 16:43) *
I also wanted to know if any of you had intel on how dashcam footage can give evidence for red light running if it happened, which in this case would be from a car low down versus a red light camera which is obviously mounted high enough to show where the red light lines are to confirm a vehicle has crossed a red light past the traffic light line.

What do you mean by intel? Either dashcam footage proves an offence beyond reasonable doubt, or it doesn't.


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peodude
post Sat, 30 Nov 2019 - 10:02
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 29 Nov 2019 - 12:33) *
Ignoring amber, an offence occurs if any part of your vehicle moves over the stop line whilst red is displayed.


As it's in the Flame Pit, i'll ask, does that apply to a reverse motion as well as a forward motion?
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DancingDad
post Sat, 30 Nov 2019 - 10:18
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QUOTE (peodude @ Sat, 30 Nov 2019 - 10:02) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 29 Nov 2019 - 12:33) *
Ignoring amber, an offence occurs if any part of your vehicle moves over the stop line whilst red is displayed.


As it's in the Flame Pit, i'll ask, does that apply to a reverse motion as well as a forward motion?

TSRGD2016, Sch4, part1 (4)(5)(3)
(3) Subject to sub-paragraphs (4) to (6), the red signal conveys the prohibition that vehicular traffic must not proceed beyond the stop line.

Which would say that reversing back over the line having been caught in no man's land is okay.
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Atomic Tomato
post Sat, 30 Nov 2019 - 11:14
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QUOTE (peodude @ Sat, 30 Nov 2019 - 10:02) *
As it's in the Flame Pit, i'll ask, does that apply to a reverse motion as well as a forward motion?


I watched a dash cam video from Australia where a car went over the line on red lights and got flashed, they stopped and reversed back and got flashed a second time.

No idea if this would happen in the UK
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666
post Sat, 30 Nov 2019 - 11:35
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QUOTE (Atomic Tomato @ Sat, 30 Nov 2019 - 11:14) *
QUOTE (peodude @ Sat, 30 Nov 2019 - 10:02) *
As it's in the Flame Pit, i'll ask, does that apply to a reverse motion as well as a forward motion?


I watched a dash cam video from Australia where a car went over the line on red lights and got flashed, they stopped and reversed back and got flashed a second time.

No idea if this would happen in the UK

It wouldn't matter - only one offence would have been committed, as Dancing Dad has explained.

Did the Aussie video reveal the outcome?
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cp8759
post Sat, 30 Nov 2019 - 16:36
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Aussie rules might be different, the guy might have committed two offences under their rules.


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oldstoat
post Sat, 30 Nov 2019 - 17:06
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An interesting dilemma. If a 45foot HGV tractor and trailer passes the stop line on green and then due to circumstances beyond its control, is unable to proceed to its exit, (no yellow box) finds itself straddling the stop line on red, and thus blocking the junction entirely, what is the HGV supposed to do. a) wait for green or b) drive out of the junction and thus cross the stop line on red with the last 10 foot of the trailer?

This post has been edited by oldstoat: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 - 17:08


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cp8759
post Sat, 30 Nov 2019 - 17:33
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By the letter of the law, the HGV should stay put.


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oldstoat
post Sat, 30 Nov 2019 - 18:23
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 30 Nov 2019 - 17:33) *
By the letter of the law, the HGV should stay put.



stupid though it seems, you are right. I have been in that situation. I blocked the junction for 4 mins whilst the whole junction was snarled. I was going through on green and the car in front decided to let a car out from a side street on the left, i just saw the lights turning red as my cab went level. stopped and that was the end of movement across the junction till mine went green again. had the car in front not let the other car out, we would all have cleared the junction


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jdh
post Mon, 2 Dec 2019 - 13:43
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QUOTE (oldstoat @ Sat, 30 Nov 2019 - 18:23) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 30 Nov 2019 - 17:33) *
By the letter of the law, the HGV should stay put.



stupid though it seems, you are right. I have been in that situation. I blocked the junction for 4 mins whilst the whole junction was snarled. I was going through on green and the car in front decided to let a car out from a side street on the left, i just saw the lights turning red as my cab went level. stopped and that was the end of movement across the junction till mine went green again. had the car in front not let the other car out, we would all have cleared the junction
I see similar things at a particular junction in town quite often, stop line then 2 cars then a yellow box side junction then the rest of the queue. Lights go green and the first 2 cars proceed, first car behind the box waits and lets either someone turn right out of the side junction or oncoming car from previous phase turn right into the side road, as the first 2 cars have gone nothing is triggering the sensor to keep the phase green so the lights cycle back to red, there's just enough time for the waiter to get through but everyone else in the queue is now stuck waiting for another cycle. If the waiter had just gone the whole queue would get through up to the point the phase hits max green time and when it changes the side road traffic would still have gotten in/out as there's plenty of time before the next phases have any effect as the junction is split across 5 arms on both sides of a single width bridge. 1 person's politeness holds everyone up except themselves.
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