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Logician
Posted on: Yesterday, 22:40


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And what did the third party witness statements say?
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1391472 · Replies: 11 · Views: 395

Logician
Posted on: Thu, 7 Jun 2018 - 14:21


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To avoid any confrontation, many people just prefer to 'be out' when the police come knocking, but they cannot force you to sign and a polite refusal is fine.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1388390 · Replies: 18 · Views: 2,568

Logician
Posted on: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 - 22:47


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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Wed, 6 Jun 2018 - 18:36) *
Except the OPs wife will have to disclose her defence before the trial, and it is very very likely they will obtain an extra statement. If they rock up on the day and ambush the prosecution it is likely they will adjourn.


That is why I suggested in my earlier post that when asked she should say that her defence was that the stated limit was not exceeded, they may or may not realise that the stated limit is 76mph. Ambushing the prosecution is introducing something unexpected and new, not revealing a weakness in the prosecution case that was clear to anyone reading the papers, in my opinion. The defence has no obligation to point out weaknesses in the prosecution case so that they can be corrected. I think this could make a successful half-time submission of no case to answer.

  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1388182 · Replies: 26 · Views: 1,503

Logician
Posted on: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 - 15:22


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QUOTE (Hugh Walker @ Wed, 6 Jun 2018 - 10:08) *
Thanks for the feedback, generally saying that the error on their statement will simply be corrected... The WYP laid down the information with the court on the 22nd May just before the deadline/time out for court proceedings. I think it will be best to plead guilty by post and send in the information and point out in the mitigation that the statement presented to the court by one of the Police's witnesses is incorrect and ask if they feel this would be a sound conviction given the circumstances


No, if you plead guilty then you are guilty, any mitigation goes towards sentence, and an error in the paperwork after the event is not mitigation. If she wants to try to take advantage of the error she will need to plead not guilty. The prosecution then have to prove their case, an essential element of that being the speed limit. If the only evidence they have available is a certificate showing it to be 76mph, they cannot prove their case. They may ask for an adjournment, which the OP should resist. The prosecution should not have the opportunity to adjourn while they gather more evidence, any more than the defence would be allowed to.

  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1388081 · Replies: 26 · Views: 1,503

Logician
Posted on: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 - 01:06


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The missing duration of the speed check session is of no relevance. Unless you have another line of defence, your best course will be to accept the workshop option.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1387928 · Replies: 1 · Views: 257

Logician
Posted on: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 - 01:01


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Just to be clear, were you spoken to by any police officer at the time of the incident, or was the s.172 letter the first you knew of any police interest?
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1387927 · Replies: 26 · Views: 1,036

Logician
Posted on: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 - 00:55


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So how to proceed, plead not guilty, when asked the reason for the plea say that the stated limit was not exceeded, go to court and require the prosecution to prove the speed limit in question? This is going to take a certain amount of resilience and the OP says his wife is shy and does not want to appear in court, so she is either going to need the support of a solicitor, or could indeed send a solicitor to represent her.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1387925 · Replies: 26 · Views: 1,503

Logician
Posted on: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 - 00:36


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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Tue, 5 Jun 2018 - 19:09) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Tue, 5 Jun 2018 - 18:28) *
To find out which you have to go to Regulations made under RTA 1988 s.36
They’re set out in the TSRGD. IIRC, they forgot to apply s 36 to the no entry sign.


Indeed, but that was corrected along with other errors LINK para 7.2
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1387922 · Replies: 23 · Views: 1,600

Logician
Posted on: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 - 18:05


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QUOTE (StuartBu @ Tue, 5 Jun 2018 - 18:46) *
I must be missing something here- I still don't see it spelled out exactly what you did wrong.


"Failure to comply with lane closure traffic light signals" I assume that on THIS gantry or a previous one, there was a red cross over lane 2, indicating that the lane was closed and having the same effect as a red traffic light, the OP was in that lane, but could not get into lane 1 because of the volume of traffic until he reached the scene of the RTC, therefore passing the red light. The police no doubt assumed he was trying to gain an advantage over the lane 1 traffic by failing to move across.

  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1387800 · Replies: 26 · Views: 1,036

Logician
Posted on: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 - 17:28


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QUOTE (baroudeur @ Tue, 5 Jun 2018 - 14:56) *
QUOTE (sexyshark @ Mon, 4 Jun 2018 - 12:22) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Mon, 4 Jun 2018 - 12:16) *
If you went past a No Entry sign that is an endorsable offence, but it sounds as though it was not that but the sort of road that has a notice like "No access except to authorised vehicles" in which case it is likely to be a fine only.
yes it was a no vehicles unless for access only sign so no points then which is a relief many thanks
Failing to conform to a traffic sign £100 and 3 points (TS50)


No, the offence is endorsable in respect of some signs, but not others, see RTOA 1988 Sch 2 Part 1. To find out which you have to go to Regulations made under RTA 1988 s.36

  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1387781 · Replies: 23 · Views: 1,600

Logician
Posted on: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 - 16:26


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QUOTE (TheManinBlack @ Tue, 5 Jun 2018 - 17:12) *
I just spoke with another solicitor (again, I didn't hire him, just got initial advice) - but he said that the 3 charges are 3 separate offences and the prosecution can push for a full 12 points to be dished out (6 points for mobile phone and 6 points for speeding) and the court has the discretion to apply such sentencing if it sees fit and disqualify me. Is that right?? His advice would seem to contradict s28(4) Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988...


Have a look at s.28(5), the court does indeed have such discretion but it is very rarely exercised, I fact I was once talking to a very experienced court legal advisor who was quite unaware of it! It is vanishingly unlikely to apply in your case, was the solicitor by any chance suggesting that with his knowledge and expertise he might be able to avoid such a dreadful outcome for you?

  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1387763 · Replies: 49 · Views: 3,416

Logician
Posted on: Mon, 4 Jun 2018 - 20:02


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QUOTE (StuartBu @ Mon, 4 Jun 2018 - 18:57) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Mon, 4 Jun 2018 - 17:39) *
It does not really matter whether or not the OP was insured throughout the period, the crucial thing is whether they were insured on the day referred to in the charge, which is presumably the date of the accident.
Which is why I said " to at least the date of the accident" I also totally disagree with what you say about it not mattering whether OP was or wasnt insured for the other period.


You are welcome to disagree, but he will be charged with using a vehicle with no insurance on a particular date, and that date is all the court will be concerned about, our system is not like the Continental examining magistrate system where other matters can be considered. A UK court will be concerned about whether or not the defendant is guilty of the charge which has been brought, not whether he might have committed other offences.

  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1387538 · Replies: 7 · Views: 625

Logician
Posted on: Mon, 4 Jun 2018 - 19:53


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You are rather unlikely to be able to go it over with in one go, because it is unlikely that there will be a prosecutor present for the SD with your file available. You could say something like, "I am pleading not guilty to both charges for the time being" and see if things progress from there. Do NOT plead guilty to the speeding until the s.172 is dropped, or you could be convicted of both offences. The second date will not be more involved if the s.172 is dropped and you plead guilty to the speeding, as will almost certainly happen provided you follow the advice given. You will be asked again about your plea, and that will be the formal plea, the first occasion being regarded as simply indicating how you will plead. Once you have pleaded guilty to the speeding, the prosecution will not be interested in asking you questions, their job is done. The bench may ask you why you were speeding before sentencing you. But your reply will not be of much consequence unless you have some sort of mitigation which is unlikely.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1387535 · Replies: 15 · Views: 846

Logician
Posted on: Mon, 4 Jun 2018 - 16:39


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It does not really matter whether or not the OP was insured throughout the period, the crucial thing is whether they were insured on the day referred to in the charge, which is presumably the date of the accident.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1387472 · Replies: 7 · Views: 625

Logician
Posted on: Mon, 4 Jun 2018 - 15:46


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If the insurance company are honouring the claim they should be willing to state in writing they were covering you at the time, and you can plead not guilty and present that document as evidence. In court the prosecution cannot ever prove you were not insured, the way it works is that it is up to you to prove you were insured. All the police have is the response from the Motor Insurance Database, which showed you were uninsured but can be refuted.

On a side issue, never use the insurers credit agreement, because if a payment is missed for whatever reason, your policy is liable to be cancelled and although you should get 7 days notice, people complain that they did not. Better to use a credit card, miss a payment on that and you may get all sorts of threat but your insurance will not be cancelled.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1387446 · Replies: 7 · Views: 625

Logician
Posted on: Mon, 4 Jun 2018 - 11:16


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If you went past a No Entry sign that is an endorsable offence, but it sounds as though it was not that but the sort of road that has a notice like "No access except to authorised vehicles" in which case it is likely to be a fine only.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1387363 · Replies: 23 · Views: 1,600

Logician
Posted on: Mon, 4 Jun 2018 - 11:10


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QUOTE
Just to check, if I say not guilty to both offences, is it not considered lying under oath if I actually am guilty of the speeding? This would be proven later in the plea bargain when I change my plea.


No

QUOTE
So is my best bet to attempt to plea bargain on the set date and if that is refused then plead NG for both and try again on the next date?


No, plead NG to both offences first of all, and see if there is a prosecutor there taking an interest. Probably there will not be, and your file will not be in court, so a plea bargain will not be possible. You will then be given a date, and on that date follow my post #3.

You are following a well trodden path, everybody will be very familiar with the procedure and expecting it to go this way.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1387360 · Replies: 15 · Views: 846

Logician
Posted on: Mon, 4 Jun 2018 - 11:00


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You have now attracted the attention of two separate officers by your manner of driving in central London, so regardless of whether or not there was anything illegal about it, it is just foolish to continue the same way. I did see that the police are fed up with Arab princes and wealthy Russians bringing in their supercars for the Summer and making a nuisance of themselves, so they are probably being particularly vigilant and you have got caught up as a consequence.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1387356 · Replies: 34 · Views: 2,853

Logician
Posted on: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 - 18:45


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For the offence of motor racing on the highway to be committed there must be more than one vehicle, however fast you were going and however loud your car, you were not racing unless another vehicle was present. on the other hand there does not have to be any prior arrangement, a spontaneous race with another vehicle with no particular beginning or end can be a race.

It seems to me a real stretch to say that your insurance was invalidated by this 'racing' because he does not know the terms of your policy. Looking at a couple of policies, their exclusions are directed to organised competitions, not anything occurring spontaneously. I think a prosecution might struggle to prove the charge of no insurance.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1387204 · Replies: 34 · Views: 2,853

Logician
Posted on: Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 22:36


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QUOTE (glasgow_bhoy @ Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 16:06) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Fri, 1 Jun 2018 - 19:18) *
The only minimum speed limits I know of apply to tunnels, the Mersey and Clyde tunnels, but there may well be more.
Clyde tunnel doesn't have a minimum speed.


Right, I just saw a comment on a motoring forum, perhaps it did at one time?

  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1387099 · Replies: 20 · Views: 1,466

Logician
Posted on: Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 22:24


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Provided the speeding offence would attract less than 6 points on its own, you should plead Not Guilty to both offences, and then attend court on the date set. As there is no evidence as to who was driving your car, since you have not told them, there can be no conviction for the speeding unless you plead guilty. Get to court early and ask one of the ushers (people scurrying about with clipboards and possibly gowns getting things organised) to point out to you the prosecutor who will be dealing with traffic matters. Say to him/her that you will plead Guilty to the speeding if they will drop the s.172. We have never heard of prosecutors refusing to do this, they prefer to get a conviction for the underlying offence, and regard the two offences as effectively alternative offences. If you do not manage to speak to the prosecutor beforehand, you should still be able to do the deal in the courtroom. It is very difficult to do this in advance of the court hearing as you would have trouble speaking to the right person.

One further point if your speed was 50mph or less (55mph in some areas), if you had received the NIP you could have nominated yourself as the driver and would then have received the offer of a fixed penalty. The normal sentencing for speeding in court would be rather more severe than this, so you would have been disadvantaged. Therefore you should point this out to the court and request to be sentenced at the fixed penalty level, which is a guideline for magistrates' courts in these circumstances. The actual wording of the guideline is:

Where a penalty notice could not be offered or taken up for reasons unconnected with the offence itself, such as administrative difficulties outside the control of the offender, the starting point should be a fine equivalent to the amount of the penalty and no order of costs should be imposed. The offender should not be disadvantaged by the unavailability of the penalty notice in these circumstances
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1387097 · Replies: 15 · Views: 846

Logician
Posted on: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 - 18:26


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That looks like a dual carriageway with NSL of 70mph for a car, and if that is correct and you were in a car you will very likely receive a CoFP for 3 points and £100 for 92mph. If you do get 6 points as a new driver, you are not disqualified, your licence is revoked and you can get a new licence by passing your tests again.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1386828 · Replies: 4 · Views: 511

Logician
Posted on: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 - 18:18


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The only minimum speed limits I know of apply to tunnels, the Mersey and Clyde tunnels, but there may well be more.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1386823 · Replies: 20 · Views: 1,466

Logician
Posted on: Thu, 31 May 2018 - 11:43


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QUOTE (IanJohnsonWS14 @ Thu, 31 May 2018 - 07:55) *
QUOTE (dazzsuzuki @ Wed, 30 May 2018 - 13:29) *
thanks for the reply , outdated and annoying , considering it is allowed to do 70 on a motorway . i dont really see the difference betwwen a 2 lane motorway and a dual carriageway with national speed limit , but hey that's the law !
There are big differences, motorways are no-stopping, minimum speed, no agricultural vehicles, (there is a sign at the start of each one), also no crossing points, junctions always have slip roads and motorways are designed with minimum radius curves etc. etc. So we know they also have blue signs . . . .





What is the minimum speed that motorways have? It is news to me.

  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1386371 · Replies: 20 · Views: 1,466

Logician
Posted on: Tue, 29 May 2018 - 10:08


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QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 29 May 2018 - 08:14) *
47 in a 30 should qualify for a 3 points £100 fixed penalty. But it will be interesting what they offer.


The thing is they will not offer fixed penalties for two endorsable offences, so unless the mobile phone offence is dropped it, the case will have to go to court.

  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1385738 · Replies: 49 · Views: 3,416

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