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LAMBETH CHALLENGE PCN PROCESS?
pcnchallenger
post Sat, 27 Apr 2019 - 08:37
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Hi Forum!
I had online challenged a PCN from LAMBETH that was issued on the 13/04/2019. They then replied over 1 month later deciding not to cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.


|
QUOTE
PENALTY CHARGE NOTICE
DATE OF ISSUE
VEHICLE REGISTRATION MARK
LOCATION
CONTRAVENTION
Thank you for writing to us. We have carefully considered what you say but we have decided not to cancel your PCN. You were issued a PCN for parking in a bay that had been suspended. There were yellow signs saying "Warning. Parking suspended. No waiting, loading, unloading." Bays are generally suspended to allow for roadworks or large delivery vehicles. Our suspension log shows that your vehicle was not in the bay when the suspension sign was put in place.

It is the motorist's responsibility to make sure that they obey the suspension notice and that their vehicle is legally parked at all times. It is up to drivers to check on their car every day to make sure that their parking bay is not being suspended. The vehicle was parked outside of_ which was suspended. Thus the PCN was issued.



You have these choices:
1. You can pay the discount charge of 65 quid if your payment reaches us within 14 days of the date of this letter.
2. You can pay 130 quid within 28 days of the date your PCN was issed.
3. You can formally challenge your PCN by using a Notice to Owner form. The vehicle's owner wwill automatically receive the form if the PCN has not been paid within 28 days of being issued. The form offers you the chance to formally challenge your PCN or pay the full 130 quid. If you decide to formally challenge your PCN, pleas do not write to us again but wait until the Notice to the Owner form arrives.


I am now lost as to what to do as their is so much conflicting information on LAMBETH'S website, London Tribunals and Traffic Penalty Tribunal.

Can anyone please clear this up for me on what the correct next steps are?

Additionally, the later states that if the PCN is not paid within 14 days of the letter (even though I only received the letter 9 days into that 14 days) that it will go up to 135 quid. How is this even legal??

Thanks in advance!

This post has been edited by pcnchallenger: Sat, 27 Apr 2019 - 08:52
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post Sat, 27 Apr 2019 - 08:37
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pcnchallenger
post Mon, 10 Jun 2019 - 19:57
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Hi,

Thanks so much for your reply Gert and Hcanderson.

Strangely, when I logged in today I was greeted with different grounds of appeal.

Any suggestions on which one to choose now?

https://ibb.co/Mgv3mcY

Thanks
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 10 Jun 2019 - 21:25
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QUOTE (pcnchallenger @ Mon, 10 Jun 2019 - 20:57) *
Hi,

Thanks so much for your reply Gert and Hcanderson.

Strangely, when I logged in today I was greeted with different grounds of appeal.

Any suggestions on which one to choose now?

https://ibb.co/Mgv3mcY

Thanks


nice and simple those are the statutory grounds (almost) top one the contravention did not occur.


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pcnchallenger
post Wed, 3 Jul 2019 - 13:52
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Thanks for the guidance, 21 days after challenging the PCN for the second time (formally), unfortuantely it has been rejected again and with no reason provided.

https://ibb.co/2vZJ41W

So, now I will now appeal to the Environment and Traffic Adjudicators.

https://ibb.co/r4b9XRX
I have an option of attending the case but this is optional.
Would you recommend attenting the hearing? Will it help the case if I attend?

Looking forward to your replies.
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hcandersen
post Wed, 3 Jul 2019 - 20:58
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First, re-post the first page of the NOR leaving in all dates;
Next, post the rest of the NOR;
Third, post your representations.

Then we'll see where we are.
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pcnchallenger
post Thu, 4 Jul 2019 - 14:36
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 3 Jul 2019 - 21:58) *
First, re-post the first page of the NOR leaving in all dates;
Next, post the rest of the NOR;
Third, post your representations.

Then we'll see where we are.



Hi apologies for that, here is the first page with the dates:

https://ibb.co/8NW9ZND



The rest of the NOR:

https://ibb.co/8PSxGrb

https://ibb.co/J7QpDTS

https://ibb.co/4d1CLMH

https://ibb.co/kqrzwc5

https://ibb.co/n3xXFdr



Representations:

As the authority know, there is a single parking place at the location which extends continuously from the end wall of no. 124 to no.122, a distance of approx. 20 metres.

The parking place is reserved for permit holders only and therefore is not sub-divided into spaces for any part of its length. There are no lines defining ‘Car Spaces’.

The authority erected a suspension sign outside no. 124 which as far as is material stated the following:

Place: Residents bay outside 122-124
(2 car spaces)

Firstly, it is not a resident's bay, it is a permit holder's parking place;

Secondly, that part of the parking place outside 122-124 has no 'car spaces' because none is marked: it is a continuous length of parking place which could accommodate at least 4 cars.

It therefore follows that the sign is absolutely contradictory as to its meaning and the extent of the prohibition i.e. it is impossible for any motorist to determine which parts of the 4-car length parking place are suspended and which not.

The contravention therefore could not occur because the precedent condition that the council sign the prohibition clearly has not been met. The PCN must therefore be cancelled.

Additionally, the WARNING sign had been replaced on the 24/04/2019 expanding the warning to 3 car spaces from the previous WARNING that stated 2 car spaces. Therefore, it is also impossible to know which 3 out of the 4 spaces is reserved.



Photo Evidence:

https://ibb.co/TmkCjSR

https://ibb.co/1ZcYzdF

https://ibb.co/MkfQCJr

https://ibb.co/JvTYVHQ

https://ibb.co/jyMDdVq

https://ibb.co/FBXQDjy

Looking forward to hear from you!

This post has been edited by pcnchallenger: Thu, 4 Jul 2019 - 14:39
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cp8759
post Thu, 4 Jul 2019 - 19:13
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That is an almost complete failure to address the points raised in your representations. Jaffer Husseyin v Royal Borough of Greenwich (2170256432, 03 July 2017) is relevant:

The Rejection Notice has every appearance of a pro-forma letter and does not
deal at all with the representations made. The response
required was a very simple one, namely words to the effect that that whilst we
accept that you had a permit on display you were not parked in the road to which it
applied – see terms of permit. Motorists are entitled to have their representations
properly considered and an explanation, even if brief, why they are rejected. I am
unable to be satisfied that in issuing this rejection notice the Council had properly
performed its statutory duty to consider representations and this amounts to
procedural impropriety. The Appeal is therefore allowed.


On top of this, they've helpfully included a will / may flaw in the rejection letter. They cannot say that if you don't pay or appeal they will increase the charge, they can only say they may increase the charge. This is a procedural impropriety that could win on its own.

They've also included the served / delivered flaw (PMB could you confirm the leading case for that please?).

As they've not re-offered the discount and their rejection is pants, it's a real no-brainer to appeal, though in the end I doubt they will contest. For now, register the appeal on the tribunal website and write "detailed grounds to follow" in the reasons box. The grounds are that the alleged contravention did not occur, and there has been a procedural impropriety.


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If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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pcnchallenger
post Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 16:06
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Hi cp8759,

Thanks for your reply.

I will appeal to the E&TA, but do I not provide a word document with exactly the same representations I made to the council and the photo evidence I provided? (See my previous post for details)

What does "detailed grounds to follow" mean? Would I get another opportunity to send through my explanation after appealing on the E&TA website?

Looking forward to hearing from you!
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 16:18
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QUOTE (pcnchallenger @ Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 17:06) *
Hi cp8759,

Thanks for your reply.

I will appeal to the E&TA, but do I not provide a word document with exactly the same representations I made to the council and the photo evidence I provided? (See my previous post for details)

What does "detailed grounds to follow" mean? Would I get another opportunity to send through my explanation after appealing on the E&TA website?

Looking forward to hearing from you!


No what you should do is register your appeal with LT in the section for grounds it is the contravention did not occur and the penalty exceeds the relevant amount. In the section for evidence just write full submission to follow. The tribunal will then register your case, inform the council and instruct them to submit their evidence. They will also write to you and tell you when you need to submit your evidence by. One of us will then draft an appeal for you including all the technical points


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pcnchallenger
post Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 18:25
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Hi PASTMYBEST,

Got it, will register my appeal with the E&TA on the grounds that the ''contravention did not occur'', ''the penalty exceeds the relevant amount'' and ''There has been a procedural impropriety on the part of the Enforcement Authority''.

Are these 3 grounds correct?
https://ibb.co/09DRFzL


Will also add in the section for "evidence" - "Full submission to follow".

Will I have to wait for them to tell me when to submit my evidence to prepare the appeal or is it worth preparing that now?

Thanks for the help, looking forward to hearing from you!

This post has been edited by pcnchallenger: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 18:35
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 18:35
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QUOTE (pcnchallenger @ Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 19:25) *
Hi PASTMYBEST,

Got it, will register my appeal with the E&TA on the grounds that the ''contravention did not occur'', ''the penalty exceeds the relevant amount'' and ''There has been a procedural impropriety on the part of the Enforcement Authority''.

Are these 3 grounds correct?
https://ibb.co/09DRFzL


Will also add in the section for "evidence" - "Full submission to follow".

Will I have to wait for them to tell me when to submit my evidence to prepare the appeal or is it worth preparing that now?

Thanks for the help, looking forward to hearing from you!


No they are technical points that one of us will do for you, but lets wait to see if the council contest first


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pcnchallenger
post Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 18:41
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Ok thanks.

Are these 3 grounds to mark correct?
https://ibb.co/09DRFzL
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 18:45
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QUOTE (pcnchallenger @ Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 19:41) *
Ok thanks.

Are these 3 grounds to mark correct?
https://ibb.co/09DRFzL


I was thinking it was moving traffic for some reason. Just the contravention did not occur and the procedural impropriety


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pcnchallenger
post Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 18:52
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 19:45) *
QUOTE (pcnchallenger @ Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 19:41) *
Ok thanks.

Are these 3 grounds to mark correct?
https://ibb.co/09DRFzL


I was thinking it was moving traffic for some reason. Just the contravention did not occur and the procedural impropriety



Ok, are you sure we submit evidence later as they state this:
https://ibb.co/KD8YsGN
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pcnchallenger
post Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 19:02
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Additionally, would you recommend attending the hearing on not?
https://ibb.co/4ZLW4yn

Thanks!
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 19:17
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QUOTE (pcnchallenger @ Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 20:02) *
Additionally, would you recommend attending the hearing on not?
https://ibb.co/4ZLW4yn

Thanks!


Lets get your appeal together first, if you feel confident to argue the case then yes. Say you will you can always change later


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pcnchallenger
post Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 19:22
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 20:17) *
QUOTE (pcnchallenger @ Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 20:02) *
Additionally, would you recommend attending the hearing on not?
https://ibb.co/4ZLW4yn

Thanks!


Lets get your appeal together first, if you feel confident to argue the case then yes. Say you will you can always change later



Ok understood.

Maybe the process has been updated but it is asking me to book a hearing date... Are you sure I can change to not attending at a later date? Or will it jeopardize my appeal if I do not attend?

https://ibb.co/qdRpn0t

This post has been edited by pcnchallenger: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 19:49
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Neil B
post Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 21:38
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QUOTE (pcnchallenger @ Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 20:22) *
Are you sure I can change to not attending at a later date? Or will it jeopardize my appeal if I do not attend?

Yes and no, in that order.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 22:42
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 22:38) *
QUOTE (pcnchallenger @ Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 20:22) *
Are you sure I can change to not attending at a later date? Or will it jeopardize my appeal if I do not attend?

Yes and no, in that order.



If you have any holidays planned ask for a date that takes them into account, if not leave it they will set a date. You will get at least 3 weeks notice. You can always ask for an adjournment if needed

This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 22:43


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pcnchallenger
post Thu, 11 Jul 2019 - 12:07
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Hi all,

I have received this letter:

https://ibb.co/DCsbhtJ

Would the next step be putting a case together?


Thanks!
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 11 Jul 2019 - 12:38
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Yep by the 2nd of august as stated. keep the thread live and one of us will draft for you


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