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Posted by: Manc1 Fri, 31 May 2019 - 21:54
Post #1489149

Hi All,
I received a PCN couple of days back (28/05/19) for a bus lane contravention turning from Whitworth Street onto Oxford Street in Manchester. I didn't notice the signage (which is poor) untill i turn left into oxford street. Also my sat nav took me via this road, i noticed in the cctv image and Google Street View that there is no Red highlighted Bus Lane marking but they marked as Bus gate also spotted one very poor, minimal sign on Whitworth Street approach to junction

detection date: 23/05/19
PCN posting: 28/05/19
Contravention: Bus Lane - Oxford Street (Whitworth Street West to Chepstow Street)

The Penalty charge of £60.00 must be paid before the end of the period 28 days begining with the date of service of this notice and will be reduced by one half £30.00 if paid before the end of the period 14 days begining with the date of serice of this notice.

Can someone please help me where do i start with an appeal? Can anybody point me towards a good letter to help with this? I really have no idea what to do at all.

Any help would be appreciated, thank you.

https://imgur.com/a/lM09gzm - Copy of the PCN uploaded here.

https://imgur.com/a/lM09gzm

Posted by: PASTMYBEST Fri, 31 May 2019 - 22:13
Post #1489154

Every appeal we have seen has won because of the signage and the decision of the deputy chief adjudicator

https://1drv.ms/b/s!AtBHPhdJdppVqkNx3g8q3GPKWApV

Posted by: cp8759 Fri, 31 May 2019 - 22:16
Post #1489155

Just tell them the signage is pants as per Watkin and others v Manchester City Council (MC01044-1808, 29 January 2019) and the penalty must be cancelled. They will reject, you then appeal to the tribunal and the tribunal will order them to cancel. We've won every case so far since that decision came out.

Posted by: Manc1 Fri, 31 May 2019 - 23:15
Post #1489163

Thanks Both,
@cp8759, Can i use the below draft and send it to council?

I submit that the alleged contravention did not occur, due to inadequate signage. I do not dispute that the signs employed by the council comply with The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016, but I aver that the signs nonetheless fail to adequately convey the restrictions.

On the evening of the alleged contravention i was travelling along Whitworth Street and turned left onto Oxford Street, it is my contention that the signage, when approached from this direction of travel, is inadequate and fails to meet the requirements of regulation 18 of The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996 which provides, in so far as is relevant, that:

"Where an order relating to any road has been made, the order making authority shall take such steps as are necessary to secure—

(a) before the order comes into force, the placing on or near the road of such traffic signs in such positions as the order making authority may consider requisite for securing that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road;
(b) the maintenance of such signs for so long as the order remains in force"

While there are advance warning signs along Whitworth street, these signs do not convey the restrictions provided for the the Traffic Regulation Order, furthermore advance warning signs do not create any restriction as such, restrictions are only conveyed by regulatory signs placed at, or as close as possible to, the point where the restrictions commence.

The regulatory signs installed by the council face traffic travelling along Oxford Street, and are not visible to traffic turning left onto Oxford Street from Whitworth Street until a motorist has already committed to the turn. The following image illustrates the visibility of the regulatory signs for traffic travelling from Whitworth Street:


The regulatory signs on Oxford Street convey that a "no motor vehicles" restriction is in force from 6 am to 9 pm, except for buses, taxis and permit holders. There are no signs on Whitworth street that accurately convey this restriction and even if a motorist turning left were to see the signs on Oxford Street, it would by then be far too late to take an alternative route: reversing or performing a u-turn in the middle of a busy junction is not a real option and it may well open up the driver to prosecution from the police for driving without due care and attention.

For the contravention to occur, the motorist must have a lawful route open to him that allows him to avoid committing the contravention, at the point in time when he is given adequate notice of what the restrictions actually are. There is no burden on motorists to avoid taking a route on the off-chance that taking a particular route might be subject to certain unknown restrictions at some point further along the road. The situation might be different if the advance warning signs on Whitworth Street adequately conveyed the restrictions provided for in the Traffic Regulation Order, but that is not the case in this instance.

Furthermore, if the council contends that there is no requirement for the actual nature and timings of the restrictions to be properly conveyed to motorists travelling from Whitworth Street, this is tantamount to suggesting the contravention can be sustained on the basis of the advance warning signs alone, i.e. it would be a contravention to turn left from Whitworth Street and travel north along Oxford Street even if there were no regulatory signs at all on Oxford Street, clearly this cannot be right. But it also cannot be right for the contravention to be based on signage which a motorist wouldn't be able to see until he has already committed to turning left into Oxford Street.

One has to ask, if the restrictions are adequately conveyed, how would the driver of an exempt vehicle, such as a taxi driver who was delivering a customer to Manchester from a different city, know that the exemption applies and turning left onto Oxford Street is permitted? The simple answer is the driver would have no notice of the exemption, and he would have to either, out of an abundance of caution, drive straight ahead, or turn left and take the risk (at that point unknowable to him) that he might commit a contravention. This sort of ambiguity cannot have been what Parliament intended when it spoke of "securing that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road".

Therefore because the signage employed by the highways authority does not adequately convey the nature and timing of the restrictions to motorists turning left from Whitworth Street, and because no regulatory signs are visible to motorists turning left from Whitworth Street until it it too late to take an alternative route, the Highways Authority has failed to discharge its duties under regulation 18 above and the alleged contravention did not occur.

As per Watkin and others v Manchester City Council, (MC01044-1808, 29 January 2019) the penalty must be cancelled
Please let me know your comments on this.


Thanks.

Posted by: cp8759 Sat, 1 Jun 2019 - 20:59
Post #1489282

I see you've found one of my original drafts for this location, yes you can use that it's still good.

Posted by: Manc1 Sun, 2 Jun 2019 - 22:24
Post #1489468

Thanks cp8759,

Yes i found one of your drafts while i was searching in this forum.

I will send my draft to council today and let you know the results.


Thanks

Posted by: Manc1 Sun, 2 Jun 2019 - 22:41
Post #1489472

Appeal sumitted today and got below email.

"Thank you for your appeal against a Bus lane which we received on 02/06/2019. Your case will be passed to an officer to review and you should receive a reply within 21 working days.

If you have not received a response within 21 working days, please email representations@manchester.gov.uk, quoting your Penalty Charge Notice (ticket number) the 8 digit reference number starting "MC" and the date you submitted the appeal".

Posted by: Manc1 Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 19:59
Post #1497537

Hello cp8759 & PASTMYBEST,
After submtting my appeal via online i haven't received any reply from them and its been past 21 days but today i have received a CHARGE CERTIFICATE from manchester city council asking me to pay £ 90.00. It says this Charger Certificate has been issued and served by the council because this penality charge has not been paid before the end of the relevant period. But i have submitted my appeal via council and i have received email from council that they have received my email and it will take 21 days.

Do you think council ignored my appeal and send me this Charge Certificate? I have also not received Notice To Owner (nto) they just send me the charge certificate straight away.

Letter also says if the payment is not payed before the end of the period of 14 days action will be taken by the council to recover the increased charge through the county court.

Please advise me on this who i do need to contact from here, can i call the council on the number given in the letter?

Thanks.

Letter from Council received today - https://imgur.com/a/x3sqUzq

Posted by: Incandescent Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 20:34
Post #1497541

This is a postal PCN case, so no Notice to Owner is issued. When you submitted your reps on-line did you give an address ? Legally, if they reject your reps, they must reply in writing, an email response is not allowed. The Charge Certificate is sent to the name and address on your V5C registration document for your car.

You cannot appeal a CC, so you must now wait for them to send an Order for Recovery, at which point you can submit a Statutory Declaration that you did not receive a Notice of Rejection of Representations. The matter is then reverted to the original PCN stage when you can submit reps again, or pay-up.

Posted by: PASTMYBEST Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 20:34
Post #1497542

The cheeky bugg*rs seem to be doing this quite a lot. Don't worry if you have confirmation of receipt of representations. The next letter you will/should receive will be entitled order for recovery. When you get that you can submit a statutory declaration to the effect that you made representations and did not receive a response The Charge certificate will be revoked and the council will have to refer to the adjudicator for direction. You will in all likelihood be invited to appeal to the tribunal and the council will not contest. But whatever you should apply for costs


have a search on the forum for other M/cr bus lane case you will find a few where they have done this

Posted by: cp8759 Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 21:24
Post #1497564

If you want to read up on the process, go to https://www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/witness-statements/ and scroll half way down the page to "Statutory Declarations", ground 2 is the one that applies to you.

Posted by: Manc1 Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 22:27
Post #1497584

Thanks cp8759, ASTMYBEST & Incandescent.

Now i need to wait for my next letter order for recovery before i do anything? How long does it take for them to send that letter?

I will search for M/cr bus lanes in this forum and cp8759 thanks for the link. I will have a look.

Thanks.

Posted by: PASTMYBEST Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 22:30
Post #1497586

It could take a while. What Manchester are doing is playing chicken, they hope you will get scared and pay

Posted by: Manc1 Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 23:28
Post #1497593

Thanks PASTMYBEST,

i will wait for the letter order for recovery and will action accordingly.

Posted by: Manc1 Sat, 27 Jul 2019 - 21:40
Post #1503250

Hi All,
I have received 2 letters from Manchester city council this week 1 letter with reduced amount to £30.00 has to be paid no later than 6th July 2019 but they send this letter on 23rd July so i passed the deadline.

2nd letter is threating letter "unpaid Penalty Charge Notice warning your case is to be registered as a Debit at the county court" asking me to pay £90.00 within 7 days. A Warrant of Execution will then be issued to Bailiffs, who will undertake recovery action, which includes powers to seize your goods, including your vehicle, to recover the debit and any additional Bailiff fees.

Not sure why they saying the amount is reduced to £30.00 in 1 letter and in other letter asking me to pay £90.00. Do i need worry about this debt county court threating letter?

I am still waiting for order for recovery which gives me an oppurtunity to file a stauatory Declaration, can i do that when i receive warrant of Execution from Bailiffs or Debt from county court?

https://imgur.com/a/OQ0jv2g - Both letters from council.

Posted by: PASTMYBEST Sat, 27 Jul 2019 - 22:00
Post #1503253

post all the letters

Posted by: Manc1 Sat, 27 Jul 2019 - 22:29
Post #1503255

https://imgur.com/a/OQ0jv2g - Both letters from council.

Both letters uploaded in the below link

https://imgur.com/a/OQ0jv2g

Thanks

Posted by: PASTMYBEST Sun, 28 Jul 2019 - 00:13
Post #1503264

Just bluster that to me reinforces my belief that they are acting deliberately in order to try and scare you into paying. Just wait for the order for recovery

Posted by: cp8759 Sun, 28 Jul 2019 - 15:57
Post #1503354

+1

Posted by: Manc1 Wed, 31 Jul 2019 - 22:13
Post #1504328

Thank you both,

I will wait for the Order for recovery. Hope they dont send me debit county letter straight instead of Order for recovery.

Posted by: cp8759 Wed, 31 Jul 2019 - 23:21
Post #1504340

There's no such thing as a "debt county letter".

Posted by: Manc1 Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 16:32
Post #1508168

Hi PASTMYBEST & cp8759,
I have received Order for Recovery of unpaid penalty charge letter asking me to pay £90 charge & £9 court charge total £98 at Traffic Enforcement Center at Northampton County Court. They have given me an option to file a statutory declaration with an enclosed form and send it to Traffic Enforcement Center.

"The declaration must be signed before a commissioner for Oaths (eg. a solicitor), or an officer of any county court appointed by a judge to take affidavits or a justice of the peace. You may have to pay a fee" - Where can i find commissioner for Oaths or solicitor in Manchester and how much fee they charge? What happens if i send letter without declaration of commissioner of oaths? They will reject my appplication?

I will tick the option - " I made representations about the penalty charge to the council concerned before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of the notice to Owner or Bus Lane Penalty Charge Notice, but did not receive a rejection notice" with additional information and sign it send to Traffic Enforecement.

Please advise me where to approach for commissioner for Oaths.

Order for recovery letter - https://imgur.com/a/wMfNaJN


Thanks.

Posted by: cp8759 Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 16:58
Post #1508177

You can't send the declaration without it being witnessed, it would just get rejected. But you don't need to pay anyone, if you go to your local magistrates or county court you can make the declaration in front of a magistrate or county court officer, links below:

Manchester Magistrates' Court: https://courttribunalfinder.service.gov.uk/courts/manchester-magistrates-court
Manchester County and Family Court: https://courttribunalfinder.service.gov.uk/courts/manchester-county-and-family-court

Just call up and explain you need to make an appointment to make a statutory declaration.

Posted by: Manc1 Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 22:27
Post #1508273

Thanks, i will ring them and make an appointment. So i have to fill the form with details infront of local magistrate or county officer?

Posted by: cp8759 Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 22:46
Post #1508280

Yes you just fill it in in front of them, they should help you do it. Don't put anything in the "other information" box, just tick and sign.

Posted by: Manc1 Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 23:10
Post #1508282

Yes you just fill it in in front of them, they should help you do it. Don't put anything in the "other information" box, just tick and sign.
[/quote]


Thanks, i will ring them and make appointment soon.

Posted by: Manc1 Thu, 22 Aug 2019 - 20:11
Post #1509895

cp8759,

I have filled the form infront of them just ticked the form and signed. They have signed and stamped the form. Can i just send the form to "The Traffic Enforcement Center"?

Do i need to include the email proof from Manchester city council that they acknowledged my appeal and will respond that in 21 days? or just send signed letter?

Thanks.

Posted by: PASTMYBEST Thu, 22 Aug 2019 - 23:47
Post #1509918

No just send the declaration the acknowledgement is for later

No just send the declaration

Posted by: Manc1 Fri, 23 Aug 2019 - 21:25
Post #1510173

Thanks PASTMYBEST,
I have posted the letter to The Traffic Enforcement Centre, Northamption county court Bulk Centre.

What happens next? Do the court will ask council for proof of rejection notice or any other information?

Posted by: cp8759 Sun, 25 Aug 2019 - 11:45
Post #1510429

No the court will just cancel the Order for Recovery and the Charge Certificate. The council should then refer the case to the tribunal.

Posted by: Manc1 Fri, 6 Sep 2019 - 21:59
Post #1513342

Hi Both, I have received letter from both County court and City council.

County court - It is ordered that the order for recovery of unpaid penalty charge be revoked. It is further ordered that the charge certificate be cancelled.

City Council - The county court has sent us a copy of your recent statutory declaration.The order for recovery & charge certificate have been cancelled but the county court order did not cancel the Penalty Charge Notice. This means that the penalty charge of £60.00 is outstanding.
"We note what you have said in the statutory declaration but: We did receive your representations and sent a Notice of Rejection to you on 12 July 2019". But this is after 21 days (grace period), i made my appeal on Jun 2 and they sent a Notice of Rejection after sendng charge certificate on 12th July which passed my grace period.

https://imgur.com/a/aDye5eK
Please see both letters above.

Now do i need to wait for Adjudicator directions? The Adjucator will contact me if they need further clarification or the council will refer to Traffic Penalty Tribunal?

Thanks.

Posted by: cp8759 Mon, 9 Sep 2019 - 20:22
Post #1513900

Now we wait for the adjudicator's directions, but in the meantime ask the council for a copy of the Notice of Rejection which they claim they sent on 12 July.

Posted by: Manc1 Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 23:01
Post #1514900

Hi cp8759,
I have asked them before when they sent me charge certificate saying why there is no response to my appeal before they send me charge certificate. They get back to me on 12 July saying "I noticed the comments you mentioned in the letter and i can confirm that we have not received any previous enquiry i have reintroduced the discounted charge of £30.00 provided you pay this within 14 days of the date of this letter". But i got acknowlegement email from them saying they received my appeal and they never replied to me saying whether my appeak is rejected or not.

Posted by: cp8759 Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 17:40
Post #1515103

There's not much to do aside from waiting for the adjudicator's directions.

Posted by: Manc1 Fri, 20 Sep 2019 - 20:12
Post #1516981

Hi cp8759 & PASTMYBEST

I got a letter from my council this week saying my Penalty Charge Notice has now been cancelled.

"I write to inform you that the above Penality Charge Notice has now been cancelled".

Full letter here - https://imgur.com/a/mUCqBWH

Is my case is closed now and i wont get any more letters from Council regarding this issue in future?

Many thanks both for helping me out with this issue.

Posted by: cp8759 Fri, 20 Sep 2019 - 20:13
Post #1516982

Yes, case closed.

Posted by: Manc1 Fri, 20 Sep 2019 - 20:16
Post #1516984

Thanks for your help cp8759

Posted by: PASTMYBEST Fri, 20 Sep 2019 - 20:45
Post #1516990

Reaffirming my suspicion that this diabolical council are using charge certificates as a threat

Posted by: rebmosh98 Mon, 23 Sep 2019 - 20:27
Post #1517648

appeal it , i did and won

Posted by: PASTMYBEST Mon, 23 Sep 2019 - 20:53
Post #1517659

appeal what the PCN has been cancelled

Posted by: blueste Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 11:20
Post #1553007

I have received a penalty charge notice that relates to this (alleged offence Oxford Street Whitworth Street West to Chepstow street) The alleged offence date was 06/02/20. I am sure that the signage is as inadequate now as it was when these appeals were going through as I did not see any signage and would not have entered the bus gate if I had. However, I note that discussions and appeals relating to poor signage ceased around March 19. Does anyone know if signage has been improved to a standard that would see appeals turned down? Is it worth me appealing or am I likely to end up paying anyway? Thanx in advance for any advice.

Posted by: Incandescent Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 12:03
Post #1553022

If you want help, please start your own thread and post the PCN, and tell us where you entered the bus lane. A GSV link of the location would be useful. It has been claimed that the signage has been improved and adjudicators now accept it is adequate, but as TPT has no on-line access to their appeal register, it is very difficult to tell what persuaded the adjudicators. Only if OPs post up their appeal result do we get anything back.