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CAMDEN, Southampton Row WC1 - Bus Lane PCN, Southampton Row WC1 - Bus Lane PCN
guibnll
post Sun, 14 Apr 2019 - 23:03
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Good night guys,

I have recently received this Bus Lane PCN which I'm 100% sure it's unfair to receive. I need some help to claim against them. The image below is the PCN with the images. As you can see from first image, I filtered between both buses, and i clearly didn't see any sign as there was no signage, and I didnt obstract anyone, I didnt make anyone to stop. So now i dont know what to claim against them, and I can't pay for this bad allegation of Camden.

This post has been edited by guibnll: Sun, 14 Apr 2019 - 23:04
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post Sun, 14 Apr 2019 - 23:03
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stamfordman
post Wed, 17 Jul 2019 - 21:47
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Don't forget that the filter arrow puts the end of lane even more in your favour:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5192516,-...3312!8i6656
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guibnll
post Sat, 20 Jul 2019 - 07:13
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Good morning guys,

I just got a reply from londontribunals.

Please find attached image below.

https://imgur.com/JYd74ZI


Please guide me to the next step. biggrin.gif
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 20 Jul 2019 - 09:03
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So now if you have heard nothing from us by the beginning of august bump the thread and one of us will draft an appeal for you


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guibnll
post Sat, 20 Jul 2019 - 09:50
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Great stuff mate, thanks a lot for each one of you, for your time spent helping me out.

I look forward to hear back from you guys.

Have a great weekend!

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guibnll
post Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 17:21
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Bumping the thread up.
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 17:30
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QUOTE (guibnll @ Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 18:21) *
Bumping the thread up.


Will have a look tomorrow


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guibnll
post Thu, 8 Aug 2019 - 13:18
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 18:30) *
QUOTE (guibnll @ Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 18:21) *
Bumping the thread up.


Will have a look tomorrow


Hi Mate,

Did you manage to find a speach for me?

Many thanks
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 8 Aug 2019 - 16:44
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QUOTE (guibnll @ Thu, 8 Aug 2019 - 14:18) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 18:30) *
QUOTE (guibnll @ Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 18:21) *
Bumping the thread up.


Will have a look tomorrow


Hi Mate,

Did you manage to find a speach for me?

Many thanks



No I didn't but will do so later tonight check back in the morning


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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 8 Aug 2019 - 22:08
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2160499085 2160520625 2170011231 2170025702 217001210A 2170103522 2170115918 2170249390 2170276247 2170476439 2190135725 2190170409 2190224392


2170373811 2180297491 relevant no end of bus lane sign


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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 8 Aug 2019 - 22:28
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I've listed a whole load of cases above that support de minimis but do not think you need to cite them but have a read of some and if you wish do so

I would just submit this

Appeal against the imposition of PCN number xxxxxxxxx
Vehicle registration mark AA 23 BCD

(Your details)



I make this appeal under the statutory ground

That there was no breach of an order or regulations of the type described in subsection (2) of the said section 4;

I made representations to the council both informally after service of the PCN and formally after service of the enforcement notice. The content of both these representations was that no contravention occurred and that in the course of a filtering manoeuvre I passed between two buses at the end of the bus lane.

The council reject this stating that the video shows a clear entry into the area marked by a solid white line and so a contravention.

It is my submission that the video cannot be clear as to this and that in the circumstances particular to this case the signs are inadequate to convey that the restriction is in place and thus fail the requirement at s18 of the local authorities traffic orders (procedures) regulations of 1996

I can first be seen popping out between the two buses seen in the video the rearmost bus had started to move left obscuring the line. Ahead of me midway along the bus in front can be seen the white deflection arrow advising traffic wanting to turn left, as I did, to move over.. GSV shows the solid white line to end before this arrow

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5192096,-...6384!8i8192

It should also be noted that the required “end of bus lane” sign is missing. Absent this sign and the positioning of the road marking that were visible and the positions of the two buses, it appeared to me that I had reached the end of the bus lane and could safely move to the left.


In the alternative, I would submit that if an adjudicator was to find that there was an incursion into the bus lane and that the condition of the signage should have been sufficient to alert me to this. Then any incursion was so minor that the principle of De minimis non curat lex should apply.





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guibnll
post Thu, 8 Aug 2019 - 22:39
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 8 Aug 2019 - 23:28) *
I've listed a whole load of cases above that support de minimis but do not think you need to cite them but have a read of some and if you wish do so

I would just submit this

Appeal against the imposition of PCN number xxxxxxxxx
Vehicle registration mark AA 23 BCD

(Your details)



I make this appeal under the statutory ground

That there was no breach of an order or regulations of the type described in subsection (2) of the said section 4;

I made representations to the council both informally after service of the PCN and formally after service of the enforcement notice. The content of both these representations was that no contravention occurred and that in the course of a filtering manoeuvre I passed between two buses at the end of the bus lane.

The council reject this stating that the video shows a clear entry into the area marked by a solid white line and so a contravention.

It is my submission that the video cannot be clear as to this and that in the circumstances particular to this case the signs are inadequate to convey that the restriction is in place and thus fail the requirement at s18 of the local authorities traffic orders (procedures) regulations of 1996

I can first be seen popping out between the two buses seen in the video the rearmost bus had started to move left obscuring the line. Ahead of me midway along the bus in front can be seen the white deflection arrow advising traffic wanting to turn left, as I did, to move over.. GSV shows the solid white line to end before this arrow

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5192096,-...6384!8i8192

It should also be noted that the required “end of bus lane” sign is missing. Absent this sign and the positioning of the road marking that were visible and the positions of the two buses, it appeared to me that I had reached the end of the bus lane and could safely move to the left.


In the alternative, I would submit that if an adjudicator was to find that there was an incursion into the bus lane and that the condition of the signage should have been sufficient to alert me to this. Then any incursion was so minor that the principle of De minimis non curat lex should apply.



Thats a good one, i like it. However, i’m going to a court hearing, which then, i dont think i will need to write this stuff, and yes talk to the court hearing judge, right? Its my first time, so i dont know whats going to happen.
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 8 Aug 2019 - 22:55
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QUOTE (guibnll @ Thu, 8 Aug 2019 - 23:39) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 8 Aug 2019 - 23:28) *
I've listed a whole load of cases above that support de minimis but do not think you need to cite them but have a read of some and if you wish do so

I would just submit this

Appeal against the imposition of PCN number xxxxxxxxx
Vehicle registration mark AA 23 BCD

(Your details)



I make this appeal under the statutory ground

That there was no breach of an order or regulations of the type described in subsection (2) of the said section 4;

I made representations to the council both informally after service of the PCN and formally after service of the enforcement notice. The content of both these representations was that no contravention occurred and that in the course of a filtering manoeuvre I passed between two buses at the end of the bus lane.

The council reject this stating that the video shows a clear entry into the area marked by a solid white line and so a contravention.

It is my submission that the video cannot be clear as to this and that in the circumstances particular to this case the signs are inadequate to convey that the restriction is in place and thus fail the requirement at s18 of the local authorities traffic orders (procedures) regulations of 1996

I can first be seen popping out between the two buses seen in the video the rearmost bus had started to move left obscuring the line. Ahead of me midway along the bus in front can be seen the white deflection arrow advising traffic wanting to turn left, as I did, to move over.. GSV shows the solid white line to end before this arrow

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5192096,-...6384!8i8192

It should also be noted that the required “end of bus lane” sign is missing. Absent this sign and the positioning of the road marking that were visible and the positions of the two buses, it appeared to me that I had reached the end of the bus lane and could safely move to the left.


In the alternative, I would submit that if an adjudicator was to find that there was an incursion into the bus lane and that the condition of the signage should have been sufficient to alert me to this. Then any incursion was so minor that the principle of De minimis non curat lex should apply.



Thats a good one, i like it. However, i’m going to a court hearing, which then, i dont think i will need to write this stuff, and yes talk to the court hearing judge, right? Its my first time, so i dont know whats going to happen.


Your not going to a court hearing you are going to a tribunal much less formal if you don't want to submit anything but just argue your case it is up to you. I would recommend you submit a skeleton argument and let the adjudicator ask you questions on it, but I.m not there


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cp8759
post Fri, 9 Aug 2019 - 15:32
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QUOTE (guibnll @ Thu, 8 Aug 2019 - 23:39) *
Thats a good one, i like it. However, i’m going to a court hearing, which then, i dont think i will need to write this stuff, and yes talk to the court hearing judge, right? Its my first time, so i dont know whats going to happen.

Even the best lawyers in the world don't just turn and and talk, no idea where you got that idea.

Submit what PMB has drafted for you.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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guibnll
post Fri, 9 Aug 2019 - 18:03
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 9 Aug 2019 - 16:32) *
QUOTE (guibnll @ Thu, 8 Aug 2019 - 23:39) *
Thats a good one, i like it. However, i’m going to a court hearing, which then, i dont think i will need to write this stuff, and yes talk to the court hearing judge, right? Its my first time, so i dont know whats going to happen.

Even the best lawyers in the world don't just turn and and talk, no idea where you got that idea.

Submit what PMB has drafted for you.



I got the idea now, but then where do i submit this? Is it when i go there? Or is there any online form that i submit that.

Also, i received atleast 20 papers from Camden, showing what they have, proof against me. Etc. And saying that if i have any evidence is to submit to them first before going to the adjuster.
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cp8759
post Sat, 10 Aug 2019 - 13:25
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QUOTE (guibnll @ Fri, 9 Aug 2019 - 19:03) *
I got the idea now, but then where do i submit this? Is it when i go there? Or is there any online form that i submit that.

You can submit everything online, I suggest you call the tribunal helpline on 020 7520 7200 and they will explain it to you.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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guibnll
post Sat, 10 Aug 2019 - 13:28
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 10 Aug 2019 - 14:25) *
QUOTE (guibnll @ Fri, 9 Aug 2019 - 19:03) *
I got the idea now, but then where do i submit this? Is it when i go there? Or is there any online form that i submit that.

You can submit everything online, I suggest you call the tribunal helpline on 020 7520 7200 and they will explain it to you.



But then, why did i receive this letter? https://imgur.com/JYd74ZI

I’m confused. Sorry. And please help me to understand? If i have to go to that address at that time or not.
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 10 Aug 2019 - 17:09
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If you want a face to face personal hearing yes that is the date time and location for it. You can also choose to have the case heard on the papers . Either way submit either what I have drafted for you or something else of your choice. The adjudicator has the councils case in front of them and will want yours

That the council have submitted a load of pages does not matter, your case is supported only by their video. I was thinking of adding a load of other cases that could be persuasive, but decided it might just pee an adjudicator off. The principle of de minimis is a subjective matter for them to determine so lets just let them. If it gets that far. I think the adjudicator would agree on the first point


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cp8759
post Sat, 10 Aug 2019 - 21:17
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QUOTE (guibnll @ Sat, 10 Aug 2019 - 14:28) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 10 Aug 2019 - 14:25) *
QUOTE (guibnll @ Fri, 9 Aug 2019 - 19:03) *
I got the idea now, but then where do i submit this? Is it when i go there? Or is there any online form that i submit that.

You can submit everything online, I suggest you call the tribunal helpline on 020 7520 7200 and they will explain it to you.



But then, why did i receive this letter? https://imgur.com/JYd74ZI

I’m confused. Sorry. And please help me to understand? If i have to go to that address at that time or not.

It's up to you whether you want to go or not, but you must submit your appeal to the tribunal. I strongly recommend you send what PMB has drafted for you.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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guibnll
post Sat, 10 Aug 2019 - 21:22
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 10 Aug 2019 - 22:17) *
QUOTE (guibnll @ Sat, 10 Aug 2019 - 14:28) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 10 Aug 2019 - 14:25) *
QUOTE (guibnll @ Fri, 9 Aug 2019 - 19:03) *
I got the idea now, but then where do i submit this? Is it when i go there? Or is there any online form that i submit that.

You can submit everything online, I suggest you call the tribunal helpline on 020 7520 7200 and they will explain it to you.



But then, why did i receive this letter? https://imgur.com/JYd74ZI

I’m confused. Sorry. And please help me to understand? If i have to go to that address at that time or not.

It's up to you whether you want to go or not, but you must submit your appeal to the tribunal. I strongly recommend you send what PMB has drafted for you.



Sorry for the loads of replies, but what i dont understand is that. i have already registered the appeal for london tribunals, and that image is the letter i got from them, do i have to edit/update, or register again? I might call them tomorrow to do this so.
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cp8759
post Sat, 10 Aug 2019 - 21:53
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Do not register again, you can send them an email with the text of your appeal and they will add it to the case for you.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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