PCN Contravention code 12 - not sure what I was meant to do? |
PCN Contravention code 12 - not sure what I was meant to do? |
Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 23:54
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 61 Joined: 18 Mar 2019 Member No.: 102,980 |
Hello everyone,
since my last thread, I've gotten two more fines and I have paid them as they were clear cut. There is no denying that I like to park and not pay for it but this time I genuinely was not sure what is wrong. I have googled what restriction zone means and even the Glasgow council website says that it means that I must be parked in the bays. Not sure if clear from the evidence photos but I was parked just right after tuning into the street and no other signs were visible. I was parked to visit a resident in the flats on Dowanside Rd in case it matters but I'm pretty sure it does not. I have attached both sides of PCN and all the evidence photos. Any point/chance in fighting this or should I add it to my collection? Thanks. Pictures: https://imgur.com/a/ua8gONK I've pointed towards the parking bay that I was in. It's the red Alfa if not clear. Edit: Just realised there is no point in covering the number plate as every picture has them on the top. Oh well, you can check how well I did on my MOT. Something interesting I read today whilst researching. A guy said you could cover your numberplates when you park because it would be a criminal offense for a traffic warden to touch them. Therefore no fine can be issued. I would say that is pushing it but would that be successful if attempted anyway? This post has been edited by Nojo: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 - 00:08 |
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Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 23:54
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Tue, 29 Oct 2019 - 15:24
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#41
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Member Group: Members Posts: 61 Joined: 18 Mar 2019 Member No.: 102,980 |
The council has messed up big time, and handed you a wining hand. There is no "further" Notice to Owner, Tom McLaren must be a newbie or something. Anyway, the legal position is this: you made a formal representation at the time and in the manner specified in the Notice to Owner, if your representation is rejected you have a statutory right to appeal to the adjudicator. I suspect that if you were to just wait for this mythical "further" Notice to Owner, you'd actually end up getting a Charge Certificate instead. In the rest of the UK this would not be a problem but in Scotland the council gets to be judge jury and executioner, so you cannot allow things to get that far as the council will just send the bailiffs storming in. Therefore this is the approach I recommend: call the Parking and Bus Lane Tribunal for Scotland, the number is here https://foam.appealparkingorbuslanefine.gov...t/your_appeal#/ Tell them that you've received a Notice to Owner, you've made a formal representation and received a Notice of Rejection, but the Notice of Rejection does not contain an appeal code. Do not discuss the contents of the Notice of Rejection, it's not really relevant at this stage, all the tribunal needs to know is that your formal representation has been rejected but the appeal code is missing from the letter. In previous cases this has only ever lead to three possible outcomes: 1) The tribunal gives you the code so you can appeal online, or 2) The tribunal gets the council to give you the code so you can appeal online, or 3) The council realises it's messed up and cancels the PCN If you get a code and register the appeal, you have an easy win as the Notice of Rejection is missing all the statutory appeal information; I dare say there's little chance of the council fighting the case any further at that point. That sounds excellent! One thing however is the reply looks like the first response I received. I am mentioning this because on the Parking and Bus Lane Tribunal website they give an example of a notice of rejection and my document does not mention this anywhere. I have attached a picture to show you what I mean - I do not have this heading at all. Also, this was received over email. Is it possible that they send this over email and a notice of rejection over the post? My point is can I legally say over the phone that "I have received a notice of rejection" if it doesn't say that on it? Either way I'll try to phone today but please let me know. |
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Tue, 29 Oct 2019 - 17:11
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#42
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
My point is can I legally say over the phone that "I have received a notice of rejection" if it doesn't say that on it? If you have received a Notice to Owner, made a representation against the Notice to Owner in the form and manner specified in the notice, and the council has sent you a letter saying it rejects what you say, then by definition that is a Notice of Rejection. The title that the council puts at the top of the letter is irrelevant. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 08:54
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#43
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Member Group: Members Posts: 61 Joined: 18 Mar 2019 Member No.: 102,980 |
My point is can I legally say over the phone that "I have received a notice of rejection" if it doesn't say that on it? If you have received a Notice to Owner, made a representation against the Notice to Owner in the form and manner specified in the notice, and the council has sent you a letter saying it rejects what you say, then by definition that is a Notice of Rejection. The title that the council puts at the top of the letter is irrelevant. So I've just spoken with them on the phone. The woman asked me for the date of the letter and gave me a PIN code which was invalid. I phoned again and she told me that the PIN code is usually related to the date of the letter. She will now phone Glasgow City Council to try and chase up this PIN code. What the response leads me to believe is that Tom screwed up big time and somehow used a normal reply template to respond to my formal representation rather than using the proper Notice of Rejection template which generates a PIN code. She is now contacting them and I imagine that they will generate a PIN code. I don't know how they are standing in terms of procedural impropriety if they now generate a blank Notice of Rejection simply to obtain a PIN code. Either way I hope I can win the original facts alone. Will keep you all updated. EDIT: Spoke with the woman again. Glasgow City Council claim that I have not made formal representation yet and they have offered the charge back down to £30 and a Notice to Owner will now follow again. I explained that I already have one notice to owner which I have made formal representations against and I do not see how they have managed to reset the process or how exactly I will receive a second Notice to Owner. I was advised to contact them directly since understandably she does not deal with his. I think someone somewhere in the council has messed up this case. Even if we assume that I didn't make representation, surely I should be getting a charge certificate instead of a letter from Tom? What should I do now? I do not want to leave this as it is. My idea was to contact the council and try to get an explanation from them but not sure on what to insist after that. Do I ask for my Notice of Rejection or just ensure that we are backs to the NtO stage and I can just wait for it? This post has been edited by Nojo: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 10:08 |
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Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 12:48
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#44
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
I think someone somewhere in the council has messed up this case. Even if we assume that I didn't make representation, surely I should be getting a charge certificate instead of a letter from Tom? I think you're right, Tom used the wrong template and has messed up the case, the risk of a charge certificate has not been removed. At this point the best solution would be to send the appeal by post, in the first instance I would call the council back and ask for a paper appeal form. If that doesn't work, you might have to simply put your appeal in letter form, as long as you includes copies of the Notice to Owner and the council's rejection letter, the tribunal should be able to register the appeal for you. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 13:42
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#45
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Member Group: Members Posts: 61 Joined: 18 Mar 2019 Member No.: 102,980 |
Am I not meant to ask the tribunal rather than the council for an appeal form? That's how I understand it from this website. They say to "Request a postal appeal form by phone - 0330 123 5582" the number being the tribunals number.
From what the lady told me she cannot help me unless the council progress this PCN. Implying that they cannot and only the council can. This leads me to believe I should contact the council. |
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Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 14:33
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#46
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
You received a Notice to Owner issued under paragraph 1 of Schedule 6 to the Road Traffic Act 1991 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1991/4...e/6/paragraph/1 as modified by paragraph 7 of Schedule 2 to The Road Traffic (Permitted Parking Area and Special Parking Area) (City of Glasgow) Designation Order 1999 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ssi/1999/59/...aragraph/7/made
You made a representation against the PCN and the council did not accept it. Paragraph 4 of Schedule as modified by the designation order says: Where any representations are made under paragraph 2 above but the parking authority do not accept that a ground has been established, the notice served under paragraph 2(7) above (“the notice of rejection”) must— (a) state that a charge certificate may be served under paragraph 6 below unless before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of the notice of rejection— (i) the penalty charge is paid; or (ii) the person on whom the notice is served appeals to a parking adjudicator against the penalty charge; (b) indicate the nature of a parking adjudicator’s power to award expenses against any person appealing to him; and (с) describe in general terms the form and manner in which an appeal to a parking adjudicator must be made, and may contain such other information as the parking authority consider appropriate. Paragraph 5 says: 5(1) Where the parking authority serve notice under sub-paragraph (7) of paragraph 2 above, that they do not accept that a ground on which representations were made under that paragraph has been established, the person making those representations may, before— (a) the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of that notice; or (b) such longer period as a parking adjudicator may allow, appeal to a parking adjudicator against the parking authority’s decision. (2) On an appeal under this paragraph, the parking adjudicator shall consider the representations in question and any additional representations which are made by the appellant on any of the grounds mentioned in paragraph 2(4) above and may give the parking authority concerned such directions as he considers appropriate. (3) It shall be the duty of the parking authority to comply with any direction given to it under sub paragraph (2) above. So, you've had a notice of rejection and as a matter of law you are entitled to ask the adjudicator to adjudicate. The tribunal has a legal duty to register the appeal, the lady that answered the phone won't be legally trained and is unlikely to know what's provided in the regulations, but ultimately the council cannot hold up the process at this stage. In the circumstances, I suggest you call the tribunal number and ask for an appeal form. This post has been edited by cp8759: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 14:34 -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 15:47
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#47
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Member Group: Members Posts: 61 Joined: 18 Mar 2019 Member No.: 102,980 |
You received a Notice to Owner issued under paragraph 1 of Schedule 6 to the Road Traffic Act 1991 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1991/4...e/6/paragraph/1 as modified by paragraph 7 of Schedule 2 to The Road Traffic (Permitted Parking Area and Special Parking Area) (City of Glasgow) Designation Order 1999 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ssi/1999/59/...aragraph/7/made You made a representation against the PCN and the council did not accept it. Paragraph 4 of Schedule as modified by the designation order says: Where any representations are made under paragraph 2 above but the parking authority do not accept that a ground has been established, the notice served under paragraph 2(7) above (“the notice of rejection”) must— (a) state that a charge certificate may be served under paragraph 6 below unless before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of the notice of rejection— (i) the penalty charge is paid; or (ii) the person on whom the notice is served appeals to a parking adjudicator against the penalty charge; (b) indicate the nature of a parking adjudicator’s power to award expenses against any person appealing to him; and (с) describe in general terms the form and manner in which an appeal to a parking adjudicator must be made, and may contain such other information as the parking authority consider appropriate. Paragraph 5 says: 5(1) Where the parking authority serve notice under sub-paragraph (7) of paragraph 2 above, that they do not accept that a ground on which representations were made under that paragraph has been established, the person making those representations may, before— (a) the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of that notice; or (b) such longer period as a parking adjudicator may allow, appeal to a parking adjudicator against the parking authority’s decision. (2) On an appeal under this paragraph, the parking adjudicator shall consider the representations in question and any additional representations which are made by the appellant on any of the grounds mentioned in paragraph 2(4) above and may give the parking authority concerned such directions as he considers appropriate. (3) It shall be the duty of the parking authority to comply with any direction given to it under sub paragraph (2) above. So, you've had a notice of rejection and as a matter of law you are entitled to ask the adjudicator to adjudicate. The tribunal has a legal duty to register the appeal, the lady that answered the phone won't be legally trained and is unlikely to know what's provided in the regulations, but ultimately the council cannot hold up the process at this stage. In the circumstances, I suggest you call the tribunal number and ask for an appeal form. Was on the phone again. Spoke with a different lady and insisted on getting an appeal form. She told me that she cannot give me one because the case is back to the NtO and discount stage. She told me I need to follow the statutory requirements first and that she cannot issue and appeal form. I explained that I have legal advice and that I have followed everything including the requirements on the NtO and that I do not want to deal with the council anymore. I also said that I am extremely wary of how exactly I will receive a second NtO and want to stop this before I get a certificate of charge. I do not know what to do. My only idea is to call Glasgow Council or wait. Something is really wrong because I think that Tom actually intended to do this as he speaks of some "further" NtO as you noted. There is no way that this is routine procedure? Maybe a way to try and make people pay the £30 once more before actually serving the Notice of Rejection? |
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Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 15:54
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#48
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Was on the phone again. Spoke with a different lady and insisted on getting an appeal form. She told me that she cannot give me one because the case is back to the NtO and discount stage. She told me I need to follow the statutory requirements first and that she cannot issue and appeal form. I explained that I have legal advice and that I have followed everything including the requirements on the NtO and that I do not want to deal with the council anymore. I also said that I am extremely wary of how exactly I will receive a second NtO and want to stop this before I get a certificate of charge. I do not know what to do. My only idea is to call Glasgow Council or wait. Something is really wrong because I think that Tom actually intended to do this as he speaks of some "further" NtO as you noted. There is no way that this is routine procedure? Maybe a way to try and make people pay the £30 once more before actually serving the Notice of Rejection? The council has no legal powers to revert a case to the NtO stage, unfortunately the tribunal staff is not legally trained. I can write an appeal letter for you if you want, this should get passed to an adjudicator who will then be able to make a decision. You could just wait, but if you get a Charge Certificate your options will be: 1) Pay the £90 charge and forget about it, or 2) Take Glasgow City Council to judicial review before the Court of Session, which is likely to cost a few thousands pounds at least. On the other hand writing a letter to the tribunal is only going to cost you the price of a stamp, however this will take a bit of work so I'll only draft it if you confirm you want to try this route. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 16:17
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#49
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Member Group: Members Posts: 61 Joined: 18 Mar 2019 Member No.: 102,980 |
The council has no legal powers to revert a case to the NtO stage, unfortunately the tribunal staff is not legally trained. I can write an appeal letter for you if you want, this should get passed to an adjudicator who will then be able to make a decision. You could just wait, but if you get a Charge Certificate your options will be: 1) Pay the £90 charge and forget about it, or 2) Take Glasgow City Council to judicial review before the Court of Session, which is likely to cost a few thousands pounds at least. On the other hand writing a letter to the tribunal is only going to cost you the price of a stamp, however this will take a bit of work so I'll only draft it if you confirm you want to try this route. Sounds like I'm in a pickle! Anyway, the letter will be the route to go and I will be very grateful for it. I'm only thinking if I should at least give Glasgow Council a call to hear their side. Maybe I can make them issue a Notice of Rejection then and there? Or get them to put their side in writing if it will be of any help at some point. I would love the idea of taking them to judicial review especially if it turns out that this is a common practice in an attempt to make people pay the £30 discounted charge. Seems like simple ultra vires but the costs are so high that it is outside the realm of possible. |
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Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 17:28
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#50
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
I've found an even better solution, I'm not going to mention it on here until I know for sure that it's worked, but I've sent you a PM. If it works as I expect, you should be able to file the appeal early next week.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sun, 3 Nov 2019 - 16:44
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#51
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Nojo your appeal form will be in the post on Monday so you should expect it Tuesday or Wednesday, bump when you get it and I'll help draft your appeal.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Tue, 12 Nov 2019 - 07:33
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#52
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Member Group: Members Posts: 61 Joined: 18 Mar 2019 Member No.: 102,980 |
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Tue, 12 Nov 2019 - 21:32
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#53
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Fill in the form (including the "official use" part) to register your appeal, and send it to the tribunal together with copies of the Notice to Owner, the representations and the Notice of Rejection.
As for the grounds of appeal, write "see enclosed printed appeal" and send this: http://bit.ly/2q771WW Of course make sure to replace your username with your real name (see bit in red) and change all the text to black. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 12:04
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#54
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Member Group: Members Posts: 61 Joined: 18 Mar 2019 Member No.: 102,980 |
Fill in the form (including the "official use" part) to register your appeal, and send it to the tribunal together with copies of the Notice to Owner, the representations and the Notice of Rejection. As for the grounds of appeal, write "see enclosed printed appeal" and send this: http://bit.ly/2q771WW Of course make sure to replace your username with your real name (see bit in red) and change all the text to black. I think we have hit a wall again. I received a reply from the Tribunal. Seems like in the end the council can do anything they want. |
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Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 17:53
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#55
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Write back:
--------------- Dear Proper Officer, Your explanation is most unhelpful so I will spell out the law, which you are clearly unfamiliar with. The right to appeal to the independent adjudicator is derived from section 2(7)(b) of Schedule 6 to the Road Traffic Act 1991, under that legislation I am entitled to appeal to the adjudicator at this stage. Whether you or the council disagree is irrelevant. The reasons for that are explained in my appeal and I will not repeat them. Under The Road Traffic (Parking Adjudicators) (City of Glasgow) Regulations 1999 “proper officer” means a member of the administrative staff provided under section 73(3B)(a)(i) of the Act appointed to perform the duties of the proper officer under those Regulations. Your role is therefore purely administrative in nature. Let me be clear: you are not a qualified lawyer, you are not a judicial officer and you are not qualified to give legal advice to me or anyone else. You are also not empowered to make judicial decisions, as that is above your pay grade. With all due respect, if you were qualified to make such decisions, you would not bee the Proper Officer, you would be an adjudicator. I understand you opinion is that I am not entailed to file an appeal at this stage, but with all due respect your opinion is irrelevant as you are not entitled to make a decision on whether I am entitled to appeal or not, because you are not qualified to make such decisions. If this is something you would like to rectify I would suggest the course at https://www.gla.ac.uk/undergraduate/degrees/scotslaw/ In the meantime, there is no evidence in your response that anyone legally qualified (i.e. who knows what they're talking about) has looked at my correspondence. I must therefore insist that you refer the matter to an adjudicator for a judicial determination. If a tribunal adjudicator were to state that I am not entitled to file an appeal, that would be a judicial decision which I could challenge via the courts if necessary, and if nothing else I would at least have an explanation from a legally qualified and duly empowered person. Your role is very simple really: You receive paperwork, you put it in front of an adjudicator for a decision and you take directions from the adjudicator as to what should happen. You cannot, as a proper officer, usurp the role of the adjudicator. This would be utterly improper. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 21:52
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#56
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,160 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
OP, you posted:
Nevermind, I did find the website on the letter but not sure if I am doing it the right way. It looks just like the way I contacted them and 'appealed' the first time so not sure if any different. Submitted and will let you know. Submitted what? Who knows? And then you posted a transcribed email which did not refer to Notice of Rejection. And then you received an 'appeal form' other than through standard channels. So until you nail these inconsistencies I wouldn't start lecturing the tribunal whose response seems appropriate i.e. unless and until they receive confirmation that a NOR has been issued, then they have no role. And a NOR is what it says, a response in the format of a NOR. You don't need to lecture the tribunal just find out from the council what their letter was all about. But this approach seems mundane compared to a letter written with such brio. |
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Wed, 20 Nov 2019 - 13:41
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#57
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Member Group: Members Posts: 61 Joined: 18 Mar 2019 Member No.: 102,980 |
OP, you posted: Nevermind, I did find the website on the letter but not sure if I am doing it the right way. It looks just like the way I contacted them and 'appealed' the first time so not sure if any different. Submitted and will let you know. Submitted what? Who knows? And then you posted a transcribed email which did not refer to Notice of Rejection. And then you received an 'appeal form' other than through standard channels. So until you nail these inconsistencies I wouldn't start lecturing the tribunal whose response seems appropriate i.e. unless and until they receive confirmation that a NOR has been issued, then they have no role. And a NOR is what it says, a response in the format of a NOR. You don't need to lecture the tribunal just find out from the council what their letter was all about. But this approach seems mundane compared to a letter written with such brio. Firstly, yes, I agree that that email is a little on the lecturing side and I'm not sure if I should send it with this tone at the moment. Regarding what I did here it is again. I have checked the steps again and there is only one button on the council website that says appealing. Here are pictures of the process I used: https://imgur.com/a/KP51bBP First image is a scan of the NtO saying I can appeal on the website. The second picture shows the only button mentioning anything about parking on the website. The third picture shows all the options I had after entering my PCN details. The fourth picture shows what I was presented with after clicking on contact. I then completed my details and submitted my representation and I attached the picture on the next step. Appeal that I copy-pasted: Attached. 08.pdf ( 103.15K ) Number of downloads: 74 The text clearly mentions at the end of the paragraph that "the contravention did not occur". I used this process for both the informal and formal representation. I received both replies from the council via email and only received the NtO by mail. You can see how they have responded attached in previous replies. I hope this clears up what I've done a bit. Let me know what you think. |
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Thu, 21 Nov 2019 - 22:15
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#58
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Member Group: Members Posts: 61 Joined: 18 Mar 2019 Member No.: 102,980 |
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Fri, 22 Nov 2019 - 16:45
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#59
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Nojo the council does not dispute that it received your representations, and it has your address anyway from DVLA. Whether you use my draft or not, your choice is now to go back to the tribunal or wait (more or less indefinitely) for the council. If the council illegally serves a new Notice to Owner that it's all good as you can challenge it, if it serves a charge certificate you will just have to pay the £90.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Fri, 29 Nov 2019 - 23:09
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#60
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Member Group: Members Posts: 61 Joined: 18 Mar 2019 Member No.: 102,980 |
Council replied to the CC’d email from the tribunal. This is after I sent the snarky mail. They purport they will issue a new NtO. As long as they don’t send a certificate charge I’m fine.
This post has been edited by Nojo: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 - 00:36 |
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