50L - No Left Turn, Threads merged Options

[S.M]

Hello Everyone,

I received the below PCN for making a prohibited left turn, this was only recently enforced and didn`t come up on the navigation app when I drove through. I am hoping that someone is able to help. I have already appealed and they have rejected the appeal. My appeal was based on the fact that there is no evidence from the CCTV to suggest that I have made a prohibited left turn on the 04/06/2019. I have also asked for the TMO which they have provided.

In the rejection, they attached another image from the 15/06/2019 (11 days after the contravention) to show that there were signs in place. Do you think I can still appeal based on the fact that the CCTV does not show me committing the alleged offence? I am arguing that the signs were not there in the first place.

Thanks for you advice.









This post has been edited by S.M: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 - 10:07

[Advertisement]

[PASTMYBEST]

post the rest of the PCN

[S.M]

post the rest of the PCN

Hello - I have edited the post. Please find the full PCN.

[PASTMYBEST]

The first paragraph of page 3 is wrong and misleading

The date at which they may serve a charge certificate is 28 days beginning with the date of service in this case the 11th of July. this is also the last date by which you may make representations that must be considered by statute.

What they tell you in this paragraph is that this date is the 9th of July and after that date it is to late to make representations Truncating the allowed time by 2 days.

The do tell you the correct date for representations later but read as a whole the document is at best ambiguous on the subject, and that ambiguity must be found in your favour

[cp8759]

Well the council will no doubt argue the signs were installed in May, but if they have no solid evidence they might struggle to rebut your assertions that the signs were not there. It's not a sure thing but you could win at the tribunal if the council messes up the evidence pack.

[S.M]

The first paragraph of page 3 is wrong and misleading

The date at which they may serve a charge certificate is 28 days beginning with the date of service in this case the 11th of July. this is also the last date by which you may make representations that must be considered by statute.

What they tell you in this paragraph is that this date is the 9th of July and after that date it is to late to make representations Truncating the allowed time by 2 days.

The do tell you the correct date for representations later but read as a whole the document is at best ambiguous on the subject, and that ambiguity must be found in your favour

Is there any thread that you could point to me on how I could make the representation and the wordings that I should use? Thanks

Well the council will no doubt argue the signs were installed in May, but if they have no solid evidence they might struggle to rebut your assertions that the signs were not there. It's not a sure thing but you could win at the tribunal if the council messes up the evidence pack.

When issuing a fine, do they not have to show the sign in the same video of the car turning left?. The "evidence" that they have provided me was taken 11 days after the "enforcement" came into place.

[cp8759]

When issuing a fine, do they not have to show the sign in the same video of the car turning left?

Short answer, no. If they had photos dated from before the date of the alleged contravention, that would be sufficient. The fact that the photos are dated after is very suspicious.

[S.M]

When issuing a fine, do they not have to show the sign in the same video of the car turning left?

Short answer, no. If they had photos dated from before the date of the alleged contravention, that would be sufficient. The fact that the photos are dated after is very suspicious.

I thought they had to prove that there is an actual enforcement in place on that same video. How about if someone covered the sign with a bin bag or even if the sign wasn`t there at the time? Simply having a picture a day before wouldn`t necessarily mean the day after the sign was there for people to see right?

But based on what they have sent do you think it is worth sending it to tribunals?

[cp8759]

I thought they had to prove that there is an actual enforcement in place on that same video.

Well sorry but you thought wrong.

How about if someone covered the sign with a bin bag or even if the sign wasn`t there at the time? Simply having a picture a day before wouldn`t necessarily mean the day after the sign was there for people to see right?

This is a civil matter, not a criminal matter, so forget about beyond all reasonable doubt. The tribunal need to be satisfied on the balance of probabilities, i.e. it must conclude that it's more likely than not that the sign were (or weren't) there.

So far the council has not provided adequate evidence to show that the signs were there at the time. Whether they might have better evidence that they might pull out of the bag at a later stage of the process is anyone's guess.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Sun, 1 Sep 2019 - 20:27

[S.M]

Do you guys think I should just appeal it considering there`s a chance of me succeeding based on the evidence that the council has produced? and also the technicalities surrounding the charge certificate?
I would be grateful if someone can point to me to a write up on this forum that I could use for the representation. Thanks

[Neil B]

I'm a bit confused.

Loads of the early contraventions were waived under a blanket amnesty.
Why not yours?

Contact Cllr. Clyde Loakes.

[S.M]

I'm a bit confused.

Loads of the early contraventions were waived under a blanket amnesty.
Why not yours?

Contact Cllr. Clyde Loakes.

That was only for the first week.

[PASTMYBEST]

I'd have a go, The council are likely to mess up the technical argument, trouble is an adjudicator could also do the same

[S.M]

I'd have a go, The council are likely to mess up the technical argument, trouble is an adjudicator could also do the same

Could you point to me anywhere where i could read up in order to prepare a good write up to send to the adjudicator

[S.M]

Bump anyone?

[PASTMYBEST]

The council tell you that 28 days from the date of notice this would be the first of July if you have not paid the may serve a charge certificate and it will then be to late to appeal.

The regulations only allow that the may serve a CC after 28 days beginning with the date of service of the PCN the date of service is 2 working days after date of posting In this case the 3rd of July so they truncate the time you are allowed by regulation to make representations.

The next paragraph correctly goes on to say they may disregard representations received after 28 days beginning with date of service. This is correct as regards the regulations, but when read as a whole what is most likely to stand out.

That it would be to late after a date or they may disregard after a later date. IMO You could make representations on line on the 2nd and 3ed but the PCN tells you no its to late.

As to the signage. Its balance of probability. its a newish restriction so you would expect the council have some record of signage being erected, but require them to prove it

[S.M]

The council tell you that 28 days from the date of notice this would be the first of July if you have not paid the may serve a charge certificate and it will then be to late to appeal.

The regulations only allow that the may serve a CC after 28 days beginning with the date of service of the PCN the date of service is 2 working days after date of posting In this case the 3rd of July so they truncate the time you are allowed by regulation to make representations.

The next paragraph correctly goes on to say they may disregard representations received after 28 days beginning with date of service. This is correct as regards the regulations, but when read as a whole what is most likely to stand out.

That it would be to late after a date or they may disregard after a later date. IMO You could make representations on line on the 2nd and 3ed but the PCN tells you no its to late.

As to the signage. Its balance of probability. its a newish restriction so you would expect the council have some record of signage being erected, but require them to prove it

Can i have some tips on the drafting of the appeal please? I am a bit confused on the 28 day issue on the PCN.
For the other evidence issue I would only state
"The evidence from the council can`t be accepted as the picture was taken on the 15th of June whilst the said contravention occurred on the 4th of June 2019."

[S.M]

Should i just lodge an appeal now and say "evidence to follow?"
When i clicked on it, it asked me if I have any evidence that I cannot upload electronically - I clicked on yes and now I am on a page where it asks me for further information on my appeal "The adjudicator will consider the representations you made to the Authority, but if you wish you can restate your case or add more information here." do i leave this blank?

[cp8759]

I would go for the "evidence to follow" approach. If nothing else, the council is likely to miss the 7 day deadline to upload the mandatory minimum evidence (most councils don't seem to know about this rule) and that will be an additional argument you can use against them.

[S.M]

The council tell you that 28 days from the date of notice this would be the first of July if you have not paid the may serve a charge certificate and it will then be to late to appeal.

The regulations only allow that the may serve a CC after 28 days beginning with the date of service of the PCN the date of service is 2 working days after date of posting In this case the 3rd of July so they truncate the time you are allowed by regulation to make representations.

The next paragraph correctly goes on to say they may disregard representations received after 28 days beginning with date of service. This is correct as regards the regulations, but when read as a whole what is most likely to stand out.

That it would be to late after a date or they may disregard after a later date. IMO You could make representations on line on the 2nd and 3ed but the PCN tells you no its to late.

As to the signage. Its balance of probability. its a newish restriction so you would expect the council have some record of signage being erected, but require them to prove it

Hello there,

#Would you be able to help fill up the form pleasE?