32D Failing to drive in the direction shown by the arrow on a blue sign proceeding in the wrong direction (Camera Enforcement) |
32D Failing to drive in the direction shown by the arrow on a blue sign proceeding in the wrong direction (Camera Enforcement) |
Mon, 3 Dec 2018 - 14:41
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 60 Joined: 14 May 2018 Member No.: 97,950 |
Dear all,
Any help would be greatly appreciated. I’ve had another PCN. I’m considering giving up driving..! 32D Failing to drive in the direction shown by the arrow on a blue sign proceeding in the wrong direction (Camera Enforcement) Original PCN here: PCN_small_redacted.pdf ( 198.04K ) Number of downloads: 422 My informal representation at the end of this post Notice of Rejection here: NOR_small_Redacted.pdf ( 100.89K ) Number of downloads: 283 Photos and Video There is a video and four photos, which I will try and upload, but can't from work. The video has a time stamp on it starting at 29 Sep 2018, 08:58:16 and runs for 17 seconds, but the PCN Date of alleged Contravention is 29 Sep 18 08:57. If the alleged contravention on the PCN was at 08:57, the video, can’t show the alleged contravention. EDIT: Is this grounds for it to be cancelled? The video also doesn’t identify either road mentioned, nor show the arrow "on a blue sign" mentioned in the contravention, so doesn’t show the alleged contravention. The photos don’t identify either road mentioned, nor show the alleged contravention actually occurring. My Representation I made five points in my representation below. The NOR notes points 1, 2, 4 and five but seems to ignore them. The NOR doesn't mention point 3 at all. Point four, the video shows clearly that the two straight on white arrows on the road are covered by stationary traffic. The NOR mentions that I have raised this point, but then ignores it. The NOR acknowledges point 2, but then disagrees that this impairs my view. My Representation: Your challenge of the Penalty Charge Notice has been made with the following information: Registered Keeper: Penalty Charge Notice number (PCN): Email Address: Grounds of Appeal: (OTHER) Other Summary of Reasons for Challenge: Dear Sir / Madame, I’m really very sorry, I had no idea that you weren’t supposed to turn right into Norroy Road and I was hoping that you might consider cancelling the PCN due to the circumstances explained below. I actively avoid driving along Putney High Street if possible specifically because it is quite difficult to navigate on and off, and often very busy, but had just dropped my wife off to get her hair cut. Unfortunately for me it was a bit of a ‘perfect storm’ of external conditions meaning I didn’t realise I couldn’t turn right. Firstly, there is no ‘no right turn sign’ even though there are several along Putney High Street, and one specifically at the other end of the high street, at the traffic lights in a very similar set up: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4645659,-...6384!8i8192. Secondly from the video you can see that most of the left hand lane was blocked by a large SUV with a large roof storage rack on top. This meant I couldn't see any signs on the left side of the road at all either, as they were blocked. Thirdly, there are also no signs on the right side of the double lane before the turn into Norroy Street at all, so nothing until you’d made the turn. Fourthly, I have now spotted that on Google Street View there are big white arrows on the road pointing ahead but as you can see on the video unfortunately again, these are covered by stationary traffic, so not visible to me either. Finally, as I was looking to turn right, on looking right there are no ‘no entry’ signs into Norroy Road but there are two clear blue one way street signs pointing ahead at the start of Norroy Road that can be easily seen which indicate that you definitely can drive down Norroy Road, but nothing there to indicate I couldn’t. As I say, several reasons that made it very difficult to know that I couldn’t turn right. A cancellation would be hugely appreciated, and won’t be something I’ll be doing again. Kind regards, All correspondence received about a Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) is dealt with in chronological order. Depending on the stage of the PCN, your enquiry will be now be placed on hold and passed to the appropriate parking team and an officer will reply to you as soon as possible. We aim to respond usually within 14-21 days of receipt for enquiries received in response to a Penalty Charge Notice (PCN), which has been served to your vehicle windscreen. Please be advised that if you have not received a reply from the Council within this time we have upto 56 days to reply to a formal challenge. For details of the parking appeals process please refer to our www.wandsworth.gov.uk/parking website. You may additionally find further useful information on the Parking and Traffic Appeal Service website at www.parkingandtrafficappeals.gov.uk/ Please do not reply to this acknowledgement. If you have any further questions please call our Parking Helpline on (020) 8871 8871 Mon-Fri 9am to 5pm. If your enquiry is received within the discounted period that is stated on the PCN, then please be assured that we will re-offer you the opportunity to pay the Notice at the 50% reduced rate in the event that the charge is upheld. IMPORTANT:Confidentiality: This email and its attachments are intended for the above named only and may be confidential. If they have come to you in error you must take no action based on them, nor must you copy or show them to anyone. Please reply to this email and highlight the error. Please visit the Council's website at: www.wandsworth.gov.uk This post has been edited by obwan1212: Mon, 3 Dec 2018 - 16:40 |
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Mon, 3 Dec 2018 - 14:41
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Wed, 5 Dec 2018 - 06:56
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 60 Joined: 14 May 2018 Member No.: 97,950 |
Hi all, managed to get the video and 4 pictures up on this link:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/65taYdmo5nEx3ttL6 My first question is the fact the timestamps on the video do not match the PCN a significant enough error to get this cancelled? The video has a time stamp on it starting at 29 Sep 2018, 08:58:16 and runs for 17 seconds, but the PCN Date of alleged Contravention is 29 Sep 18 08:57. If the alleged contravention on the PCN was at 08:57, the video, can’t show the alleged contravention. Is this grounds for it to be cancelled? Secondly neither the video nor supplied photos show the roads in question, nor the blue arrow / sign that I have allegedly missed. Is this an issue? These seem to be similar cases that might help where video / pictures haven't shown signage: 2060234527 2150005597 2140200326 210030797A London Tribunals - just copy and paste the above numbers in the case reference box Edit the above link might not work so try these below: Or this one: https://londontribunals.org.uk/naslivepws/p...D5FxrxKUjcC6jPQ Or https://londontribunals.org.uk/ then Statutory Registers then scroll down to search: This post has been edited by obwan1212: Wed, 5 Dec 2018 - 08:30 |
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Wed, 5 Dec 2018 - 17:31
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
The charge certificate / reps period is wrong. Give us a Google Street View link to the location.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Thu, 6 Dec 2018 - 09:02
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 60 Joined: 14 May 2018 Member No.: 97,950 |
Thank you.
GSV: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4618949,-...3312!8i6656 The Images Shopfront is the right hand turn. Are the timestamp errors significant? |
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Thu, 6 Dec 2018 - 09:06
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Thank you. GSV: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4618949,-...3312!8i6656 The Images Shopfront is the right hand turn. Are the timestamp errors significant? yes the time stamp is very relevant There is no evidence of what you were doing at the time stated on the PCN -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Thu, 6 Dec 2018 - 12:05
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 972 Joined: 25 Jul 2010 Member No.: 39,245 |
The video is facing the oncoming direction, where there is only a right turn prohibition.
Therefore it does not show the "ahead only" sign that you passed. The video is also timed 1 minute later than the time on the PCN therefore the PCN is not showing the time of contravention, and it isn't just a case of being off by seconds. 8:57 is the time shown on the PCN. |
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Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 13:01
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 60 Joined: 14 May 2018 Member No.: 97,950 |
Hi all, just bumping this as my deadline for discount is Friday I believe.
Any help would be hugely appreciated. |
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Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 13:15
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Hi all, just bumping this as my deadline for discount is Friday I believe. Any help would be hugely appreciated. If you intend to appeal then the discount is irrelevant. Any appeal will be against the full penalty and the deadline for registering an appeal is the 24th December. I said I will write you an appeal but do not want to do waste my time doing so if you intend to pay the discount. You have a very strong case but there can be no guarantees. let us know what you intend -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 14:03
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 60 Joined: 14 May 2018 Member No.: 97,950 |
Understood, thank you, PASTMYBEST. I intend to appeal 100%.
Would it be best to register the appeal immediately and add my grounds at a later date to bring the process forward? |
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Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 14:31
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 972 Joined: 25 Jul 2010 Member No.: 39,245 |
From what I see you were definitely in contravention but can get off on a technicality based on time of day on the PCN.
That the camera was facing in a direction so as not to show the sign you passed, that might work too as they have to "prove" the contravention and that the signage was there at the time. I think you've only so far had the informal challenge, the next step is the formal appeal against the authority which, based on the fact you were in contravention, they will probably reject, because councils do that. It is likely their message will be generic: "you turned right, you did not follow the ahead only sign". Then you get an option to appeal to the tribunal where the council will have to pay £30 and you pay nothing if you win and only the penalty charge if you lose. There may be an extra charge for a "futile" claim but yours almost certainly is not. There is also a possibility of a charge for expenses if the council has been totally unreasonable. I think here you would not get those. |
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Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 15:12
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Understood, thank you, PASTMYBEST. I intend to appeal 100%. Would it be best to register the appeal immediately and add my grounds at a later date to bring the process forward? Yes let us know when its registered and I will draft an appeal this week as I said From what I see you were definitely in contravention but can get off on a technicality based on time of day on the PCN. That the camera was facing in a direction so as not to show the sign you passed, that might work too as they have to "prove" the contravention and that the signage was there at the time. I think you've only so far had the informal challenge, the next step is the formal appeal against the authority which, based on the fact you were in contravention, they will probably reject, because councils do that. It is likely their message will be generic: "you turned right, you did not follow the ahead only sign". Then you get an option to appeal to the tribunal where the council will have to pay £30 and you pay nothing if you win and only the penalty charge if you lose. There may be an extra charge for a "futile" claim but yours almost certainly is not. There is also a possibility of a charge for expenses if the council has been totally unreasonable. I think here you would not get those. No you do not get opportunity to make an informal challenge to moving traffic contraventions. next step is tribunal -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 16:52
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 60 Joined: 14 May 2018 Member No.: 97,950 |
Thanks, both. Will get this sorted tomorrow.
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Wed, 12 Dec 2018 - 10:27
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 60 Joined: 14 May 2018 Member No.: 97,950 |
Hi all, appeal lodged, date set for January and I've said I will attend.
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Wed, 12 Dec 2018 - 12:30
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Hi all, appeal lodged, date set for January and I've said I will attend. the tribunal will give you a date by which you must submit your evidence, let us know what it is when you get it -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Wed, 12 Dec 2018 - 12:49
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 60 Joined: 14 May 2018 Member No.: 97,950 |
Thanks, PASTMYBEST. Evidence to be uploaded by 15th Jan 2019.
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Thu, 10 Jan 2019 - 19:41
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 60 Joined: 14 May 2018 Member No.: 97,950 |
Hi all,
Thank you for your continued help. I have to upload any further representations to the tribunal website by 15th Jan. I am intending to attend the hearing. Wandsworth have uploaded their documents to the tribunal click to view the pdfs: cl: Evidence Checklist of what they've sent me. b: Evidence Form Case Summary and Traffic Management Order c: Evidence Form C - PCN (showing different time to the video timestamp below), CEO notes (seem to be the word 'Sucess'!), 'Contravention Images' (which don't show a lot!), 'Video Evidence' (video link in post #2 above, plus four images sent originally) and a Witness Statement from the CCTV Enforcement Officer - mentioning the wrong time / not matching the video timestamp d: Evidence Form D - just my address details. e: Evidence Form e - NOR, my original email representation, a letter with the evidence pack sent. j: Additional [Photographic] Evidence j - 3 pics showing traffic signs but no real way to identify where they were taken. video and 4 pictures up on this link: Vid and 4 Pics |
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Thu, 10 Jan 2019 - 21:56
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
That's good I will write an appeal tomorrow
-------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Thu, 10 Jan 2019 - 22:47
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#18
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Member Group: Closed Posts: 9,710 Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,355 |
A TMO from 1971 which clearly has an official sidenote to say it has been revoked!!--They submit this as evidence?
Mick |
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Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 08:47
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 60 Joined: 14 May 2018 Member No.: 97,950 |
The pics they've supplied are even better!
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Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 19:27
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Updated order: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/2858...e_passthrough=1
You're under no obligation to supply the update order to the tribunal. Under the 1971 order at schedule 2 item 4, there was a prohibition on turning right into Norroy Road from Putney High Street. No such restriction exists in the 2008 order, the only reference to Norroy Road is the restriction that makes Norroy Road a one way street. However the straight ahead arrow is a scheduled section 36 sign and the PCN alleged a contravention of the sign, rather than the contravention of a TMO. In light of this, the absence of a TMO, and the fact that an outdated TMO have been submitted in evidence, is not as helpful as might first appear. This post has been edited by cp8759: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 19:39 -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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