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Barnet: PCN for parking without correct permit despite having valid blue badge, Issued a PCN for parking in a blue badge space for "Permit Holder
aspatel300
post Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 10:58
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Wondering if any one can help me with this one!

My nan has a blue badge and parked in a blue badge parking space but Barnet council issued her with a PCN for not having a valid permit, although she has a valid blue badge, in date and correct displayed (which you can clearly see on the CEO's own pictures). The sign says "Disabled Permit Holder 223 Only At Any Time" (picture attached) but for the life of me I cannot find out what permit this refers too. There's no information on the council's website, I've tried calling them and I can't get through to a person. I've appealed this on the grounds we had a valid permit but it was rejected so looking to appeal that decision.

Any advice is greatly appreciated! Has anyone heard of this before?


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post Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 10:58
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stamfordman
post Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 11:27
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Well it's reserved for a certain BB holder.

Post the rejection - doesn't it make this clear?

Put pics on https://imgbb.com or similar.
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hcandersen
post Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 12:03
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I'd play the she was confused card. And add that you have now looked at the council's evidence and can see why - the sign departs from the prescribed versions in the BB booklet and the signs regulations.

The sign is not permitted, see the regs below.

Firstly, you need to understand that a permit is not a blue badge, it is a permit. Whoever holds permit 233 does not require a disabled logo, it is wholly irrelevant to other motorists. Permit 233 exists and only its holder may park subject to its conditions. The sign for this is a blue P, not a wheelchair. That the council have issued it to someone who MIGHT qualify for a BB is wholly irrelevant.

As you will see, if they place a P with a wheelchair logo it has the potential to cause confusion. As a start, the BB booklet doesn't even contemplate the joint use of the P and wheelchair - see page 16 of the booklet. But the traffic signs regs allow this, but the wording options are limited and what is NOT permitted is the use of 'disabled permit holder'. The ONLY permitted wording with the wheelchair is Disabled Badge Holder.

Yes a 'permit identifier' may be added, as here, but this is a number or other character, it is NOT the word 'permit'.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/4/made

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/go...nsibilities.pdf

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stamfordman
post Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 12:23
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I see what HCA is getting at. I presume this one, which is near me in Islington, is correct:

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5398624,-0....6384!8i8192
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aspatel300
post Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 12:32
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 11:27) *
Well it's reserved for a certain BB holder.

Post the rejection - doesn't it make this clear?

Put pics on https://imgbb.com or similar.



The rejection letter says

"The Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) observed your vehicle parked in a disabled badge holders' only location during prescribed hours without the correct blue badge. The CEO checked all windows but did not observe the correct blue badge on display at the time of the contravention. The restrictions in place are indicated by a nearby time plate.

"I have noted the comments made in your correspondence. Please be advised that the signage indicates that only holders of blue badge number 223 are able to be parked in this bay..."

What I'm confused about is what a "blue badge number 223" is and whether there's anything I can do to appeal this. I think the sign is very confusing too, especially as they've added in the blue badge symbol in.

QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 12:23) *
I see what HCA is getting at. I presume this one, which is near me in Islington, is correct:

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5398624,-0....6384!8i8192



See now that sign is much clearer!
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hcandersen
post Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 12:39
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@stamfordman, precisely. Nothing to mislead a BB holder.

Good exhibit for the OP who, having fired-off a challenge already, is now faced with making the argument at the NTO stage with the full penalty in play.

But OP, we need docs, not transpositions. And leave in dates.

It's Christmas, and we love dates!
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 12:47
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Authorised sign Q here

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-3291.pdf












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DancingDad
post Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 12:50
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Real scope for confusion here.
Especially as Blue Badge holders in Barnet can park in permit holder bays for unlimited time !!!
https://ask.barnet.gov.uk/citizen/parking-b...park-blue-badge
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aspatel300
post Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 14:18
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 12:39) *
@stamfordman, precisely. Nothing to mislead a BB holder.

Good exhibit for the OP who, having fired-off a challenge already, is now faced with making the argument at the NTO stage with the full penalty in play.

But OP, we need docs, not transpositions. And leave in dates.

It's Christmas, and we love dates!



I'm guessing this is heavily sarcastic lol...but hands up genuinely confused by the signage and had no idea why they'd given a ticket so I appealed it - did research and couldn't find this mythical "permit 223", called Barnet, emailed barnet, tweeted barnet, no one replied to me so had no idea what else to do! Sadly, found this forum too late. I don't know what it's like at the second stage of appeal but wondering whether it's worth it?

Anyway, letter is here:
https://ibb.co/zSF3wYC
https://ibb.co/k0hcdjC
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hcandersen
post Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 15:09
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Yes.

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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 15:21
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 15:09) *
Yes.


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stamfordman
post Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 15:26
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You might like to alert Mr Mustard, who is all things Barnet and may know more about these bays.
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 15:28
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 15:26) *
You might like to alert Mr Mustard, who is all things Barnet and may know more about these bays.


The rejection letter has handed HCA an early Christmas present


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aspatel300
post Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 16:19
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 15:26) *
You might like to alert Mr Mustard, who is all things Barnet and may know more about these bays.



Ooh how do I do this? Sorry new to this forum!
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stamfordman
post Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 16:48
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QUOTE (aspatel300 @ Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 16:19) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 15:26) *
You might like to alert Mr Mustard, who is all things Barnet and may know more about these bays.



Ooh how do I do this? Sorry new to this forum!



Don't worry - I expect he'll look in. You already have one of the forum's top experts eager to get stuck in on this (hcanderson).
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Mad Mick V
post Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 16:56
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This is what the Barnet website says about these bays:-

Do I need to display my Blue Badge in a designated disabled bay?
Yes. you will need to display both your Blue Badge and your designated disabled bay permit when parking in your designated disabled bay.

If you do not display both, you will likely receive a Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) and need to pay a fine.


I can see how a permit is required and how the contravention will be a Code 16. That said, the NSL waffle about a blue badge is nigh on useless --it's got nothing to do with "the correct Blue Badge" it's the missing PERMIT which gives rise to the contravention!!

We've had this situation in Newham and I stated:-

The Disabled Persons (Badges for Motor Vehicles) (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2013 amends the interpretation of a disability badge as follows:-

“a badge in the form prescribed by regulation 11” substitute “a badge of a form specified or approved by the Secretary of State "

Regulation 11 related to normal Blue Badges, therefore the amendment means that a disabled persons concession to use a parking place under the enabling legislation, requires a badge which needs Secretary of State approval.

The permit in this case relates to a disabled person and acts as a concession or exemption over and above that which other BB holders can enjoy. Therefore the permit, regardless of any BB on display, acts as a disabled persons concessionary pass, badge whatever you want to call it and IMO SoS approval is necessary

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/22...gulation/2/made

Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 17:22
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aspatel300
post Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 17:29
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 16:56) *
This is what the Barnet website says about these bays:-

Do I need to display my Blue Badge in a designated disabled bay?
Yes. you will need to display both your Blue Badge and your designated disabled bay permit when parking in your designated disabled bay.

If you do not display both, you will likely receive a Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) and need to pay a fine.


I can see how a permit is required and how the contravention will be a Code 16. That said, the NSL waffle about a blue badge is nigh on useless --it's got nothing to do with "the correct Blue Badge" it's the missing PERMIT which gives rise to the contravention!!

We've had this situation in Newham and I stated:-

The Disabled Persons (Badges for Motor Vehicles) (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2013 amends the interpretation of a disability badge as follows:-

“a badge in the form prescribed by regulation 11” substitute “a badge of a form specified or approved by the Secretary of State "

Regulation 11 related to normal Blue Badges, therefore the amendment means that a disabled persons concession to use a parking place under the enabling legislation, requires a badge which needs Secretary of State approval.

The permit in this case relates to a disabled person and acts as a concession or exemption over and above that which other BB holders can enjoy. Therefore the permit, regardless of any BB on display, acts as a disabled persons concessionary pass, badge whatever you want to call it and IMO SoS approval is necessary

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/22...gulation/2/made

Mick



If I'm reading this right (I'm a bit thick so took me three reads of this and still not sure if I 100% understand), then it means I don't have a case because I needed this permit + the blue badge and should just pay the discounted fine? Sorry if I'm reading this wrong.
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DancingDad
post Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 19:20
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QUOTE (aspatel300 @ Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 17:29) *
...........If I'm reading this right (I'm a bit thick so took me three reads of this and still not sure if I 100% understand), then it means I don't have a case because I needed this permit + the blue badge and should just pay the discounted fine? Sorry if I'm reading this wrong.


That is what Barnet would like you to believe.


Yet it is BArnet that is confused.

Is this a disabled bay.... according to the sign yes, so the BB (any BB) should be valid.
Or is it a permit bay, in which case according to Barnet's website, BB holders can park in any permit bay for unlimited time and inherently, they cannot cite lack of permit as the contravention.
Plus a rejection that reads more like something Enid Blyton would be ashamed of let alone a parking professional.
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 19:30
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 19:20) *
QUOTE (aspatel300 @ Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 17:29) *
...........If I'm reading this right (I'm a bit thick so took me three reads of this and still not sure if I 100% understand), then it means I don't have a case because I needed this permit + the blue badge and should just pay the discounted fine? Sorry if I'm reading this wrong.


That is what Barnet would like you to believe.


Yet it is BArnet that is confused.

Is this a disabled bay.... according to the sign yes, so the BB (any BB) should be valid.
Or is it a permit bay, in which case according to Barnet's website, BB holders can park in any permit bay for unlimited time and inherently, they cannot cite lack of permit as the contravention.
Plus a rejection that reads more like something Enid Blyton would be ashamed of let alone a parking professional.


QUOTE
parking professional
Only one of those in Barnet Mr M


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hcandersen
post Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 08:44
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OP, it is irrelevant for the general motorist what the Barnet website states, this has been taken from the blurb regarding a Barnet resident's application for a permit. It has no wider meaning for any other motorist who sees ONLY the unlawful sign.

It is the sign which gives rise to the confusion because it unlawfully uses a wheelchair logo and the phrase disabled permit holder together.

Mr M might resolve this through other channels, alternatively IMO wait for the NTO

And thanks to PMB for this:

Authorised sign Q here

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-3291.pdf


And where the hell is the wheelchair logo in the authorised sign? Of course it's not there, the SoS does NOT have any authority to disregard prescribed signs, they're there to address the anomaly that the number of permutations of restrictions permitted under the RTRA is greater than the number of prescribed signs. The SoS fills in gaps, they do not amend regs for an individual authority.

The sign neither conforms to the 2002 regs, which have been superseded anyway, nor to the new prescribed sign.
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