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No Right Turn, No Right Turn Havering
steve thompson
post Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 02:16
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Hi.

I have just received a PCN from Havering Council for a no right turn that I have read about on here a few times now. (only after getting the ticket)

After reading a few of these threads with amazing and helpful responses from people, quite often new people with the same sort of thing get told to start new threads, exactly what I am doing here.

I have attached below a sanitised version of the PCN and the two photos offered as evidence on the website. There is also the video which obviously shows me pulling out and turning right. I had no idea that these cameras were there.

I went back tonight and there is 1x Blue left turn only sign on the left side of the road within B&Q, 1x no right turn sign (one on each side of road) on B&Q land and 1x no right turn sign on the bottom of the post holding the ANPR camera.

Any advice would be greatly welcomed. Thank you.
Steve





This post has been edited by steve thompson: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 04:14
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post Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 02:16
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steve thompson
post Sun, 27 Jan 2019 - 17:10
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Sorry, its been a while. Been mega busy at work.

I've decided I want to go ahead and appeal to the tribunal. Will you please help me draft a letter please?

Many thanks in advance, Steve.
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cp8759
post Sun, 27 Jan 2019 - 19:56
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Register your appeal with the tribunal website, in the grounds box just write "detailed grounds to follow". The tribunal will email you in due course and give you a deadline for your submissions, let us know when the deadline is and we'll draft your grounds for you.


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steve thompson
post Wed, 30 Jan 2019 - 13:09
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I have just submitted my appeal to the tribunal. Just waiting for the hearing date deadline.

Will let you's know. Thanks.
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 30 Jan 2019 - 13:11
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QUOTE (steve thompson @ Wed, 30 Jan 2019 - 13:09) *
I have just submitted my appeal to the tribunal. Just waiting for the hearing date deadline.

Will let you's know. Thanks.



what have you submitted?


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steve thompson
post Wed, 30 Jan 2019 - 15:49
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 30 Jan 2019 - 13:11) *
what have you submitted?


Oh only what you told me to. Signed up for it and wrote "detailed appeal to follow". I didn't go in with the whole schabang
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steve thompson
post Fri, 1 Feb 2019 - 22:40
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Hi all.

Just received notification that the deadline is 28th February. :-)
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Neil B
post Fri, 1 Feb 2019 - 22:58
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and been given a hearing date?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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steve thompson
post Sat, 2 Feb 2019 - 05:44
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 1 Feb 2019 - 22:58) *
and been given a hearing date?


Sorry, I have worded that wrong, the hearing date is the 28th of Feb so deadline will be earlier. It says it all should be in by the 23rd.

Thanks.

This post has been edited by steve thompson: Sat, 2 Feb 2019 - 05:58
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cp8759
post Sat, 2 Feb 2019 - 18:06
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Bump around the 19th/20th


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steve thompson
post Tue, 19 Feb 2019 - 14:01
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Thank god the site is working again. Have been getting really worried!!!

Any chance of some help with a letter CP, you said to bump around now.

Many thanks,
Steve.
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cp8759
post Tue, 19 Feb 2019 - 20:46
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Download this http://bit.ly/2twdTvc (do not edit in Google Docs, causes formatting issues), add the case number in the top right hand corner (and change the text to black), then save as a PDF and upload to the tribunal website. Then ask for a decision on the papers.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 - 20:46


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steve thompson
post Tue, 19 Feb 2019 - 21:21
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 19 Feb 2019 - 20:46) *
Download this http://bit.ly/2twdTvc (do not edit in Google Docs, causes formatting issues), add the case number in the top right hand corner (and change the text to black), then save as a PDF and upload to the tribunal website. Then ask for a decision on the papers.


WOW. Just... WOW. That is amazing!! Thank you so much. Did you put all that together just for me? Thank you.

There seems like more than enough there, but I did reply when I got my notice of rejection outlining that their reply did not cover my points raised. I didn't get a letter till some time after (hence why I didn't put it on here then) attached.

Again it brushes off without any relevance. Do you think something should be added about that or leave as is?

Many thanks again, you're amazing!!!
Steve.


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cp8759
post Tue, 19 Feb 2019 - 21:32
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I don't think their other letter adds anything, I'd just leave the appeal as it is.


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steve thompson
post Tue, 19 Feb 2019 - 21:49
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 19 Feb 2019 - 21:32) *
I don't think their other letter adds anything, I'd just leave the appeal as it is.


No problem. Will do it now.

What and where do I 'ask for a decision on the papers'?
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cp8759
post Tue, 19 Feb 2019 - 21:57
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QUOTE (steve thompson @ Tue, 19 Feb 2019 - 21:49) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 19 Feb 2019 - 21:32) *
I don't think their other letter adds anything, I'd just leave the appeal as it is.


No problem. Will do it now.

What and where do I 'ask for a decision on the papers'?

There is (or will be, maybe it appears on the 23rd) an option to either ask for a hearing, or ask the tribunal to just make a decision based on the written evidence that you and the council have submitted. As this is a technical appeal and there are no factual disputes, there would be no point in an oral a hearing.


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steve thompson
post Tue, 19 Feb 2019 - 22:05
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 19 Feb 2019 - 21:57) *
QUOTE (steve thompson @ Tue, 19 Feb 2019 - 21:49) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 19 Feb 2019 - 21:32) *
I don't think their other letter adds anything, I'd just leave the appeal as it is.


No problem. Will do it now.

What and where do I 'ask for a decision on the papers'?

There is (or will be, maybe it appears on the 23rd) an option to either ask for a hearing, or ask the tribunal to just make a decision based on the written evidence that you and the council have submitted. As this is a technical appeal and there are no factual disputes, there would be no point in an oral a hearing.


Oh right, I think that bit was before. I did select to not have a physical hearing.

QUOTE (steve thompson @ Tue, 19 Feb 2019 - 22:04) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 19 Feb 2019 - 21:57) *
QUOTE (steve thompson @ Tue, 19 Feb 2019 - 21:49) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 19 Feb 2019 - 21:32) *
I don't think their other letter adds anything, I'd just leave the appeal as it is.


No problem. Will do it now.

What and where do I 'ask for a decision on the papers'?

There is (or will be, maybe it appears on the 23rd) an option to either ask for a hearing, or ask the tribunal to just make a decision based on the written evidence that you and the council have submitted. As this is a technical appeal and there are no factual disputes, there would be no point in an oral a hearing.


Oh right, I think that bit was before. I did select to not have a physical hearing.


Yes looking at the summary it says 'listing type - postal'.
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steve thompson
post Wed, 6 Mar 2019 - 08:04
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Amazing result!! Appeal allowed!!! Thank you so much CP!!!

I attach the appeal allowed letter in case it may of use in the future for someone or when quoting successful appeals.

One question, when it says 'I make no finding' in relation to the arguments about the timeframes, does that mean that he does not agree, or that he has simply has not even had to look at that element because there is sufficient to allow the appeal already?



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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 6 Mar 2019 - 13:35
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It was never in doubt and Me Harman just picked one of the reasons then he doesn't need to consider the rest, just a bit lazy coz without looking I am sure he has found on the date of service rather than notice before


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cp8759
post Wed, 6 Mar 2019 - 18:45
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QUOTE (steve thompson @ Wed, 6 Mar 2019 - 08:04) *
One question, when it says 'I make no finding' in relation to the arguments about the timeframes, does that mean that he does not agree, or that he has simply has not even had to look at that element because there is sufficient to allow the appeal already?

You will only get answers to questions that do not need to be answered to dispose of a case in the senior courts (and even there it's hit and miss), and that's only because they create binding precedent which can be useful to lower courts, hence serving a public interest.

In the tribunal, which cannot make binding case law, once an adjudicator has found grounds to allow an appeal, considering the remaining points would be entirely academic. If you think about it, why should the adjudicator apply his mind to answering hypothetical questions that will make no difference to the outcome, when he adjudicator could spend that time looking at the next case? (and what you you want him to do if you were the guy in the next case and you'd been waiting for weeks already for a decision).

In other words, the adjudicator means what he said. He allowed your appeal on ground 2 so there was no reason for him to look at the other grounds. All in all a good outcome.


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