46: stopped where prohibited (on red route or clearway), But red route sign covered Options

[alexpast]

hi everyone,

I parked my car in a red route bay but the sign is covered with a black plastic bag. Does that mean that it is suspended? and is it legal to hide a parking sign like this so it becomes suspended?

Can someone help as i received 2 penalties for the same spot in 2 different days

Penalty:

Contravention description:
Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway)

Contravention location:
OPP 79 EAST HILL SW18

thank you

Attached thumbnail(s)

 

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[DastardlyDick]

That Bay has been suspended so long it shows up on GSV!!
Yes, it's perfectly legal to do so - in fact, this is TfLs preferred method of suspending a bay in conjunction with the yellow suspension notice (which is also present on GSV).

You need to go back and check the from/to dates on the notice - if you were within them, then you may be bang to rights, and best advised to pay at the discount.

This post has been edited by DastardlyDick: Mon, 3 Dec 2018 - 22:34

[PASTMYBEST]

That Bay has been suspended so long it shows up on GSV!!
Yes, it's perfectly legal to do so - in fact, this is TfLs preferred method of suspending a bay in conjunction with the yellow suspension notice (which is also present on GSV).

You need to go back and check the from/to dates on the notice - if you were within them, then you may be bang to rights, and best advised to pay at the discount.

In light of the SoS guidance on TSRGD 2016 that a sign is no longer needed in certain circumstances with bay markings is it legal or confusing?

[DastardlyDick]

That Bay has been suspended so long it shows up on GSV!!
Yes, it's perfectly legal to do so - in fact, this is TfLs preferred method of suspending a bay in conjunction with the yellow suspension notice (which is also present on GSV).

You need to go back and check the from/to dates on the notice - if you were within them, then you may be bang to rights, and best advised to pay at the discount.

In light of the SoS guidance on TSRGD 2016 that a sign is no longer needed in certain circumstances with bay markings is it legal or confusing?

My understanding is that the reason for covering the time plate is to avoid confusion by not having both a time plate and a suspension sign on the same bay, at the same time.
I can only say that if I came up to a parking bay with the time plate covered, I'd look for other signs. Do we know if TfL have had their suspension signs approved by the SoS yet?
OP were the yellow suspension signs present when you parked? If not, that could be your "get out of jail" card.

[alexpast]

That Bay has been suspended so long it shows up on GSV!!
Yes, it's perfectly legal to do so - in fact, this is TfLs preferred method of suspending a bay in conjunction with the yellow suspension notice (which is also present on GSV).

You need to go back and check the from/to dates on the notice - if you were within them, then you may be bang to rights, and best advised to pay at the discount.

In light of the SoS guidance on TSRGD 2016 that a sign is no longer needed in certain circumstances with bay markings is it legal or confusing?

My understanding is that the reason for covering the time plate is to avoid confusion by not having both a time plate and a suspension sign on the same bay, at the same time.
I can only say that if I came up to a parking bay with the time plate covered, I'd look for other signs. Do we know if TfL have had their suspension signs approved by the SoS yet?
OP were the yellow suspension signs present when you parked? If not, that could be your "get out of jail" card.

Hi everyone and thank you,

I am 100% sure there is was no suspension sign and you all can see that from the picture uploaded, you can clearly see the pole with the.covered sign but no suspension sign (behind my car)

Would the penalty still be valid if the sign is missing? Can I make my appeal based on that? If yes, what should I write?

Thank you!

This post has been edited by alexpast: Sun, 9 Dec 2018 - 02:01

[DastardlyDick]

That Bay has been suspended so long it shows up on GSV!!
Yes, it's perfectly legal to do so - in fact, this is TfLs preferred method of suspending a bay in conjunction with the yellow suspension notice (which is also present on GSV).

You need to go back and check the from/to dates on the notice - if you were within them, then you may be bang to rights, and best advised to pay at the discount.

In light of the SoS guidance on TSRGD 2016 that a sign is no longer needed in certain circumstances with bay markings is it legal or confusing?

My understanding is that the reason for covering the time plate is to avoid confusion by not having both a time plate and a suspension sign on the same bay, at the same time.
I can only say that if I came up to a parking bay with the time plate covered, I'd look for other signs. Do we know if TfL have had their suspension signs approved by the SoS yet?
OP were the yellow suspension signs present when you parked? If not, that could be your "get out of jail" card.

Hi everyone and thank you,

I am 100% sure there is was no suspension sign and you all can see that from the picture uploaded, you can clearly see the pole with the.covered sign but no suspension sign (behind my car)

Would the penalty still be valid if the sign is missing? Can I make my appeal based on that? If yes, what should I write?

Thank you!

If you are sure the yellow suspension sign was missing (bear in mind that TfL may have photo's which show otherwise) and the time plate was covered, then yes, the PCN is invalid.

TfL are unlikely to accept this, so you will end up at Adjudication, with the full £130 penalty at stake.

Your ground for appeal will be "contravention did not occur" and just state that the time plate was covered, and there was no suspension sign, so how were you supposed to know that you weren't supposed to park there.

[DancingDad]

On a normal parking bay, the sign shows a restriction, no sign (ie covered) no restriction and PCN cannot be enforced.

On a red route, the whole length of road is restricted, no stopping.
Parking bays are exemptions to this.
If no sign can be seen (covered) then TFL will argue that no exemption exists so underlying restriction applies.
I would still argue that the parking bay markings show the exemption and that lack of time plate simply allows this 24/7.

[hcandersen]

Your ground for appeal will be "contravention did not occur" and just state that the time plate was covered, and there was no suspension sign, so how were you supposed to know that you weren't supposed to park there.

From a motorist's perspective, parking places on red routes are the same as any other: they show an exemption from the prevailing condition. So no exemption = the prevailing condition applies.

With 'normal' parking places, the prevailing condition is unrestricted, therefore where a parking place is not in operation - denoted by effective removal of the time plate - then a motorist may park.

By extension, on a red route the prevailing condition is as per the red route and a motorist may not be stationary in contravention of that condition unless specifcally permitted by the prescribed markings and time plate.

IMO, no time plate = no exemption = contravention during prevailing red route hours.

Suspensions are completely different: they replace the exemption and substitute another condition, they are not synonymous with only removing the exemption.

So IMO:

Red route parking place with suspension sign = relacement of the prevailing red route condition with that stated in the sign;

Red route parking place with covered time plate = prevailing red route condition applies.

[DastardlyDick]

Your ground for appeal will be "contravention did not occur" and just state that the time plate was covered, and there was no suspension sign, so how were you supposed to know that you weren't supposed to park there.

From a motorist's perspective, parking places on red routes are the same as any other: they show an exemption from the prevailing condition. So no exemption = the prevailing condition applies.

With 'normal' parking places, the prevailing condition is unrestricted, therefore where a parking place is not in operation - denoted by effective removal of the time plate - then a motorist may park.

By extension, on a red route the prevailing condition is as per the red route and a motorist may not be stationary in contravention of that condition unless specifcally permitted by the prescribed markings and time plate.

IMO, no time plate = no exemption = contravention during prevailing red route hours.

Suspensions are completely different: they replace the exemption and substitute another condition, they are not synonymous with only removing the exemption.

So IMO:

Red route parking place with suspension sign = relacement of the prevailing red route condition with that stated in the sign;

Red route parking place with covered time plate = prevailing red route condition applies.

A good point well made.
When I enforced Red Routes, the instruction from TfL was that if time plates were covered then the bay was not enforceable, as drivers would not know the 'terms and conditions'. Obviously, this was only policy as opposed to Law, and as we all know, policy can change.

[Longtime Lurker]

I think there's a reasonable expectation angle too. The council have a duty to act fairly. Creating a parking bay, painting it and signposting it creates a legitimate expectation that you can park there. The plate was vandalised by persons unknown, but that doesn't change the fact that it was still clearly there.

If parking signs could have their legal meanings changed by simply applying a bin bag, we'd all be carrying them in our cars and parking wherever we liked. A bin bag is not an authorised bay suspension sign (as far as I know), so it doesn't (on it's own) suspend the bay.

[hcandersen]

You're missing the point.

The bay is marked by a dashed red line. It is part of the red route, unlike a 'normal' parking place where the markings appear from nowhere.

The default position is that the location is subject to the red route restriction except..as indicated on a plate.

And if not indicated, then the default position applies.

[DancingDad]

You're missing the point.

The bay is marked by a dashed red line. It is part of the red route, unlike a 'normal' parking place where the markings appear from nowhere.

The default position is that the location is subject to the red route restriction except..as indicated on a plate.

And if not indicated, then the default position applies.

I was starting from that position earlier but as I was typing had second thoughts.


Red Routes are marked with Red Lines...means No Stopping, simples.
But Red Route parking bays are marked exactly the same as normal bays (TSRGD2016) except sometimes for the colour. And are parking bays.
That is what TSRGD calls them.
That shows an exemption exists to the normal red route restriction.
The exemption details are shown on the pole sign....No Stopping symbol right at the top, Then No Stopping words. Then except Times, Purpose of bay etc.
If the sign is covered except for the bit that says No Stopping I would agree with you, that is enough to show no stopping and that exemptions are not in operation.
But without those two words or at least the symbol, it is a parking bay, a blanket exemption to the normal red route restriction.

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 00:07

[PASTMYBEST]

You're missing the point.

The bay is marked by a dashed red line. It is part of the red route, unlike a 'normal' parking place where the markings appear from nowhere.

The default position is that the location is subject to the red route restriction except..as indicated on a plate.

And if not indicated, then the default position applies.

I was starting from that position earlier but as I was typing had second thoughts.


Red Routes are marked with Red Lines...means No Stopping, simples.
But Red Route parking bays are marked exactly the same as normal bays (TSRGD2016) except sometimes for the colour. And are parking bays.
That is what TSRGD calls them.
That shows an exemption exists to the normal red route restriction.
The exemption details are shown on the pole sign....No Stopping symbol right at the top, Then No Stopping words. Then except Times, Purpose of bay etc.
If the sign is covered except for the bit that says No Stopping I would agree with you, that is enough to show no stopping and that exemptions are not in operation.
But without those two words or at least the symbol, it is a parking bay, a blanket exemption to the normal red route restriction.

are RR bays created by TMO and if so absent a suspension would they not still be valid regardless of missing sign?

[DancingDad]

......….are RR bays created by TMO and if so absent a suspension would they not still be valid regardless of missing sign?

RR parking bays are created by an exemption within the relevant TMO.
The underlying No Stopping still exists.

Lets come at it from a different direction.
LATOR 1996 S18 requires that restrictions be clearly signed.
If experts on here are unsure or can disagree on the effect of a covered sign, the man in the street has no chance.
That cannot satisfy LATOR.

[PASTMYBEST]

......….are RR bays created by TMO and if so absent a suspension would they not still be valid regardless of missing sign?

RR parking bays are created by an exemption within the relevant TMO.
The underlying No Stopping still exists.

Lets come at it from a different direction.
LATOR 1996 S18 requires that restrictions be clearly signed.
If experts on here are unsure or can disagree on the effect of a covered sign, the man in the street has no chance.
That cannot satisfy LATOR.

I tend to agree, particularly given that TSRGD 2016 removes the requirement for signs in certain situations, do you have to carry the regs about to work out if a bay is a bay or not

[Longtime Lurker]

Two points I think we're missing here:

1) The plate is still there under the bag, the OP knows what it says, and it says he can park there. The fact that persons unknown have vandalised it does not create a suspension, only approved yellow signs can do that, or we'd all just be able to cover up bits of signs to make them have any effect we choose, and councils wouldn't have to get signs approved.

2) Why would the OP not reasonably assume the red route restriction terminates with the cross bar here? https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4577083,-0....6384!8i8192
Note that the double red line does not restart after the crossing.

This post has been edited by Longtime Lurker: Mon, 10 Dec 2018 - 20:34

[DancingDad]

Two points I think we're missing here:

1) The plate is still there under the bag, the OP knows what it says, and it says he can park there. The fact that persons unknown have vandalised it does not create a suspension, only approved yellow signs can do that, or we'd all just be able to cover up bits of signs to make them have any effect we choose, and councils wouldn't have to get signs approved.

2) Why would the OP not reasonably assume the red route restriction terminates with the cross bar here? https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4577083,-0....6384!8i8192
Note that the double red line does not restart after the crossing.

Second point is valid.

First is not, the requirement is that signs must show whatever restrictions are in place clearly. If they do not, personal knowledge makes no difference.
Don't agree it needs a suspension sign on a red route either, covering the exemptions is sufficient. But a yellow suspension sign would be clearer.

[nextdoor]

Note that the double red line does not restart after the crossing.

Except that it does:
https://goo.gl/maps/jpnqgUyooax

[Longtime Lurker]

That's a single red, not a double.

[alexpast]

Hi everyone, tfl cancelled the penalty, happy days!