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Cost to councils for appeals
peter p
post Sat, 20 Apr 2019 - 22:11
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Does it still cost councils money when you take a ticket to the tribunals? Only a few years ago when I appealed the council had to send me a massive bundle of photocopied A4 Papers through the post and I presume they had to send them to the assessor as well, it was obvious there were man hours involved in doing it. Even if you didn't win the adjudication you had a bit of satisfaction that you cost them money, money which they then couldn't spend on persecuting other motorists for similar trivial misdemeanours (and jollies).

However just lately it seems its all done at a push of a button, they are so efficient at getting things done its now nothing to them, if they run a business they way they run the parking scams they would be up there with Bill Gates. So by 'sticking it to the man' you don't really accomplish anything anymore, as far as I can see the only thing you do is make yourself stand out as a target - there was a story the other day in the paper where some old duffer is going to lose his house because of £40K legal fees all to do with a parking ticket.

I would so dearly love to bring these communist councils down but nowadays I personally just stay well away from town centres and buy everything on-line, sometimes its unavoidable due to work but at least we are taking money out of the local economy instead of giving it to them.

What got me thinking about this is how efficient the councils are at extracting money out of people, they make it look easy but in just about every other department they are in disarray. They could relieve someone of the best part of £100 withing hours but if a little kid is in mortal danger social services will takes months to even think about doing something, by which time its usually too late. So by being efficient in one department they have shown that its possible or even easy to get things done, what does that tell you about the councils morals.




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Redivi
post Sat, 20 Apr 2019 - 22:41
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Does it still cost councils money when you take a ticket to the tribunals? Only a few years ago when I appealed the council had to send me a massive bundle of photocopied A4 Papers through the post and I presume they had to send them to the assessor as well, it was obvious there were man hours involved in doing it. Even if you didn't win the adjudication you had a bit of satisfaction that you cost them money, money which they then couldn't spend on persecuting other motorists for similar trivial misdemeanours (and jollies).

I'll be interested in the answer to this because it's precisely what I'm doing with my wife's penalty notice
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The Rookie
post Sun, 21 Apr 2019 - 07:11
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QUOTE (peter p @ Sat, 20 Apr 2019 - 23:11) *
money which they then couldn't spend on persecuting other motorists for similar trivial misdemeanours (and jollies).

Money they couldn’t use for fixing postholes you mean?


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666
post Sun, 21 Apr 2019 - 07:35
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QUOTE (peter p @ Sat, 20 Apr 2019 - 23:11) *
Does it still cost councils money when you take a ticket to the tribunals? Only a few years ago when I appealed the council had to send me a massive bundle of photocopied A4 Papers through the post and I presume they had to send them to the assessor as well, it was obvious there were man hours involved in doing it. Even if you didn't win the adjudication you had a bit of satisfaction that you cost them money, money which they then couldn't spend on persecuting other motorists for similar trivial misdemeanours (and jollies).

However just lately it seems its all done at a push of a button, they are so efficient at getting things done its now nothing to them, if they run a business they way they run the parking scams they would be up there with Bill Gates. So by 'sticking it to the man' you don't really accomplish anything anymore, as far as I can see the only thing you do is make yourself stand out as a target - there was a story the other day in the paper where some old duffer is going to lose his house because of £40K legal fees all to do with a parking ticket.

I would so dearly love to bring these communist councils down but nowadays I personally just stay well away from town centres and buy everything on-line, sometimes its unavoidable due to work but at least we are taking money out of the local economy instead of giving it to them.

What got me thinking about this is how efficient the councils are at extracting money out of people, they make it look easy but in just about every other department they are in disarray. They could relieve someone of the best part of £100 withing hours but if a little kid is in mortal danger social services will takes months to even think about doing something, by which time its usually too late. So by being efficient in one department they have shown that its possible or even easy to get things done, what does that tell you about the councils morals.


But you were not 'sticking it to the man'. You were wasting money, which could have been better spent in improving social services and saving the little kid from mortal danger. I hope you feel guilty ...
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DancingDad
post Sun, 21 Apr 2019 - 07:35
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 21 Apr 2019 - 08:11) *
QUOTE (peter p @ Sat, 20 Apr 2019 - 23:11) *
money which they then couldn't spend on persecuting other motorists for similar trivial misdemeanours (and jollies).

Money they couldn’t use for fixing postholes you mean?


Yup, one of those double edged swords, in one way or another, council tax payers pay.

Not that would stop me from fighting a PCN should there be any reason to.

Man hours are still needed even if printing and postage costs are reduced.
If you see the costs that a council claims and are awarded when they persuade an adjudicator to award, it is eye watering.

And it still costs the council each and every time an appeal is lodged, about 40 quid a pop IIRC.
That funds the adjudication service.


But do not be fooled into thinking that by spending their money, you are somehow preventing them from serving PCNs to other motorists, these days it is a business, often run by private companies even if nominally the council is in charge.
And the big players, London Councils for instance, do not make a loss, they make millions.


Got a link to that story on the "old duffer" losing his house ??
I suspect that there is a lot more to it then "the big bad council is seizing his house"
Would not be surprised if it were a PPC.
And if it were a council, usually when we see big bills, it is because bailiffs have become involved, often self inflicted by the recipient of the PCN ignoring it, not dealing with it correctly or simply not updating their V5c.
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peter p
post Sun, 21 Apr 2019 - 08:50
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QUOTE (666 @ Sun, 21 Apr 2019 - 08:35) *
QUOTE (peter p @ Sat, 20 Apr 2019 - 23:11) *
Does it still cost councils money when you take a ticket to the tribunals? Only a few years ago when I appealed the council had to send me a massive bundle of photocopied A4 Papers through the post and I presume they had to send them to the assessor as well, it was obvious there were man hours involved in doing it. Even if you didn't win the adjudication you had a bit of satisfaction that you cost them money, money which they then couldn't spend on persecuting other motorists for similar trivial misdemeanours (and jollies).

However just lately it seems its all done at a push of a button, they are so efficient at getting things done its now nothing to them, if they run a business they way they run the parking scams they would be up there with Bill Gates. So by 'sticking it to the man' you don't really accomplish anything anymore, as far as I can see the only thing you do is make yourself stand out as a target - there was a story the other day in the paper where some old duffer is going to lose his house because of £40K legal fees all to do with a parking ticket.

I would so dearly love to bring these communist councils down but nowadays I personally just stay well away from town centres and buy everything on-line, sometimes its unavoidable due to work but at least we are taking money out of the local economy instead of giving it to them.

What got me thinking about this is how efficient the councils are at extracting money out of people, they make it look easy but in just about every other department they are in disarray. They could relieve someone of the best part of £100 withing hours but if a little kid is in mortal danger social services will takes months to even think about doing something, by which time its usually too late. So by being efficient in one department they have shown that its possible or even easy to get things done, what does that tell you about the councils morals.


But you were not 'sticking it to the man'. You were wasting money, which could have been better spent in improving social services and saving the little kid from mortal danger. I hope you feel guilty ...


This is all well and good in theory but in reality they don't and never will spend money wisely. If that were the case then the millions they make every year from parking tickets WOULD go to social services but it doesn't not one penny of it, it all goes back to investing in more parking attendants and yellow paint to catch even more motorists.

If everyone took every ticket to adjudication the system would fold overnight.

For Dancing Dad, this is the story I read the other day, must have been linked to from another forum I read as its 6 years old.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-22...bays-signs.html
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The Rookie
post Sun, 21 Apr 2019 - 09:06
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Be careful what you wish for, having seen the parking chaos that ensued in Aberystwyth when they went decrim parking without putting in place decrim enforcement the system folding is no more desirable than the venal enforcement in some areas now.

They can’t put the profits into non road funding, but that’s academic as it’s not enough to fund the road initiatives and repairs anyway.

While it’s clear you have a bee in your bonnet, maybe stop and think......as usual very little is black and white but there are many shades of grey and so it is with parking enforcement, none and it’s chaos, too much isn’t good either, you need the shade of grey in the middle.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

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DancingDad
post Sun, 21 Apr 2019 - 09:43
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QUOTE (peter p @ Sun, 21 Apr 2019 - 09:50) *
.........For Dancing Dad, this is the story I read the other day, must have been linked to from another forum I read as its 6 years old.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-22...bays-signs.html


That isn't a case of a poor pensioner being forced out of his house due to a parking ticket.
That is someone who decided to fight the council on signage and lost, in the High Court.
That is a risk he took in going to court, his decision, the risk is well known with costs at court, lose and it can be expensive.
Every week you can find something similar in the papers. libel cases, boundary disputes, will disputes, anyone who goes to court without being able to afford the outcome if it goes against them, is at best an idiot.
It is not even that the council took him to court, he took them !

On costs BTW and how the council uses them.
The law says any "profits" must be used for traffic management.
So the simplistic is that if a council makes 100K from parking, they can invest that in new roads, restrictions, CEOs and backroom staff to enforce.
The reality is that when they set their annual budgets, they simply include the 100K in the transport budget as expected income.
So can allocate 100K less from central funds (council tax etc) and use the saving, from the transport cut of the pie for something else.
Would be nice if it went on schools, social work, police or similar.
Bloody annoying when it goes on a new Diversity Executive.


And as Rookie says, remember Aberystwyth.
Always worth remembering Herron as well. He took Sunderland to HC over CPZ signage. Lost and in doing so, firmly cemented substantial compliance into the lexicon of councils and adjudicators.
Before Herron, it was possible to win on defective signs and lines, a yellow line missing a termination blip for instance. Far more difficult now.

I always think it is also worth remembering that many blame councils and CEOs when they get a PCN. "I only stopped on a double yellow for 10 minutes" is a common refrain.
How is that the fault of the CEO ?
Couple of years back I saw a lady giving a policeman all sorts of verbal while he was writing out an FPN for her.
FFS, she had driven past No Entry signs and parked up, facing the wrong way in a one way system, on crossing zig zags !!!!
In the same street, I also regularly see people park up in disabled bays while they nip into the bank..... whose fault is it if they cop a PCN ?
The councils for putting disabled bays outside a bank, clearly signing them with legends on the road and three post signs along the six bays ?
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southpaw82
post Sun, 21 Apr 2019 - 11:07
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 21 Apr 2019 - 10:43) *
Couple of years back I saw a lady giving a policeman all sorts of verbal while he was writing out an FPN for her.

That often resulted in the FPN being attached to the custody record for when they were bailed to court for the public order offence.


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DancingDad
post Sun, 21 Apr 2019 - 11:50
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 21 Apr 2019 - 12:07) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 21 Apr 2019 - 10:43) *
Couple of years back I saw a lady giving a policeman all sorts of verbal while he was writing out an FPN for her.

That often resulted in the FPN being attached to the custody record for when they were bailed to court for the public order offence.


And all the fault of that nasty, 'orrible copper that had no concept of her rights to park wherever she wanted rolleyes.gif
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peter p
post Sun, 21 Apr 2019 - 15:11
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Do you not see the point though, the councils can set up one department that is 100% efficient and runs like clockwork but all the others fall into diisaray. They have proved they can do it when they want to, that is undisputed so they are basically saying they can't be arsed with things like social services because they don't turn a profit. Councils shouldn't be about profits, they should be about doing the right thing.
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cp8759
post Sun, 21 Apr 2019 - 15:17
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QUOTE (peter p @ Sun, 21 Apr 2019 - 16:11) *
Do you not see the point though, the councils can set up one department that is 100% efficient and runs like clockwork but all the others fall into diisaray. They have proved they can do it when they want to, that is undisputed so they are basically saying they can't be arsed with things like social services because they don't turn a profit. Councils shouldn't be about profits, they should be about doing the right thing.

To be honest a lot of councils parking departments outside London run a deficit. A few years ago I got a PCN in Gloucestershire which they didn't cancel at the informal stage, I got it cancelled at the formal stage and made an FOI asking how much profit they made each year, answer came back that they had a deficit of over 100 grand.


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DancingDad
post Sun, 21 Apr 2019 - 17:24
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I would not call any parking department efficient either.
They get away with it because the majority of people who cop a PCN pay it.
You only have to see the mess they make of it when challenged or appeals go to adjudicators to see how poor they really are.
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cp8759
post Sun, 21 Apr 2019 - 19:07
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 21 Apr 2019 - 18:24) *
I would not call any parking department efficient either.
They get away with it because the majority of people who cop a PCN pay it.
You only have to see the mess they make of it when challenged or appeals go to adjudicators to see how poor they really are.

To be fair, the local council's parking department is hardly going to attract high flyers...


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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notmeatloaf
post Sun, 21 Apr 2019 - 23:07
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I suspect there is a parking Laffer curve - there is no point having CEOs on each corner. As such, unlike the old speeding fines bullsh*t when police could keep the fines, I doubt that paying a parking fine means you are part-sponsoring a new CEO.

As for taking money out of the local economy to spite the council, the council really won't care if you don't spend £10 in a local small business. They get paid business rates whether the business is profitable or not, unless it goes under. The small business really will care. And Amazon won't care at all over £10. Not sure I follow your logic.


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roythebus
post Mon, 22 Apr 2019 - 09:12
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Councils still get business rates income even from empty properties.
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Fredd
post Mon, 22 Apr 2019 - 09:29
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QUOTE (roythebus @ Mon, 22 Apr 2019 - 10:12) *
Councils still get business rates income even from empty properties.

Indeed; which is one reason that developers are so keen to raze a building to the ground, long before they start construction of its replacement.


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nigelbb
post Mon, 22 Apr 2019 - 10:35
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 21 Apr 2019 - 09:43) *
I always think it is also worth remembering that many blame councils and CEOs when they get a PCN. "I only stopped on a double yellow for 10 minutes" is a common refrain.

Undoubtedly there is egregious behaviour from some councils but frankly in 80-90% of the cases we see the OP is bang to rights & they either thought they would get away with it or didn't see the signs. Likewise for OPs speeding or dropping fag ends etc It's all good fun looking for loopholes & procedural improprieties but most OPs must know in their hearts that they did wrong.

This post has been edited by nigelbb: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 - 10:35


--------------------
British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice(Appendix C contains Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 ) & can be found here http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Code-of-Pr...ance-monitoring
DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...ing-charges.pdf
Damning OFT advice on levels of parking charges that was ignored by the BPA Ltd Reference Request Number: IAT/FOIA/135010 – 12 October 2012
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 22 Apr 2019 - 10:50
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QUOTE (nigelbb @ Mon, 22 Apr 2019 - 11:35) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 21 Apr 2019 - 09:43) *
I always think it is also worth remembering that many blame councils and CEOs when they get a PCN. "I only stopped on a double yellow for 10 minutes" is a common refrain.

Undoubtedly there is egregious behaviour from some councils but frankly in 80-90% of the cases we see the OP is bang to rights & they either thought they would get away with it or didn't see the signs. Likewise for OPs speeding or dropping fag ends etc It's all good fun looking for loopholes & procedural improprieties but most OPs must know in their hearts that they did wrong.


of that 80 or 90 percent we can help about the same number. So it needs be said that if the numbers are right council enforcement procedures need a long hard looking at. Councils are as bound by the law as motorists.

Look back to to December of 2017 where we had a spate of out of time PCN's served by Manchester. It turned out to be 23,500 of them £700k that was extorted from the public for a bus gate scheme that this year after a site visit was found by the deputy chief adjudicator to be signed in a way that is wholly inadequate. Manchester's response We dont care and will carry on with the extortion


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DastardlyDick
post Mon, 22 Apr 2019 - 20:21
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Since most Council parking enforcement is now outsourced to the likes of NSL, APCOA etc., I suppose any "cost" to the Council would be set out in the Contract.
I was told years ago that each PCN issued by TfL cost them £11.50 to process, more if the motorist made a challenge, and even more if it went to adjudication. This statement was never backed by any other evidence.
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